My version of how Iraq went down - for your viewing pleasure

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:21 pm

Maybe it's because when their own President states that he would
sacrifice half of Iran(his own country) to "annihilate"
Israel,... he might be a little dangerous.

bwohlgemuth · Post by **bwohlgemuth** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:07 pm

For me it's all about how Bush went about things. If he had said something to the effect of "He's a horrible dictator and we need to aid the Iraqi citizens...." then I might have had his support.

So you don't like the way things were "advertised", but the method/tactics/etc were OK with you?

How come America is allowed to posess Nukes and not Iran? That's always mistified me. It's the total 'do as I say, not as I do' bit.

Easy, the same reason why we have alcohol laws at 21 and voting laws at 18. I don't have a problem with Iran if they have a nuke, it's how they control it and what they do with. Since they are funding major terrorism operations, I think I can understand everyones concern about a rouge nuke showing up on Tel Aviv's doorstep in the near future.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:23 pm

Easy, the same reason why we have alcohol laws at 21 and voting laws at 18.

Those always mistified me as well. You can be drafted into the military ar 18 but you're not old enough to drink alochol? Doesn't make sence to me.

Since they are funding major terrorism operations, I think I can understand everyones concern about a rouge nuke showing up on Tel Aviv's doorstep in the near future.

Yes, but one could argue that the USA sponsors terrorism with the CIA and their rogue / blackbook programs. So in effect we're also sponsoring a version of terror.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:46 pm

Quote:
Since they are funding major terrorism operations, I think I can understand everyones concern about a rouge nuke showing up on Tel Aviv's doorstep in the near future.

Yes, but one could argue that the USA sponsors terrorism with the CIA and their rogue / blackbook programs. So in effect we're also sponsoring a version of terror.

One could argue that if one were a communist

just kidding

On a serious note, I don't recall anyone from the CIA shooting a rogue nuke at Bejing or anything... And they are still under the control of the US government. As George H.W. Bush put it. "There are men out there, doing things in our name, that I'd rather not know they're doing; but I'm damn glad they're doing it." Or something to that effect. By some accounts I've seen, the CIA has prevented thousands of terrorist attacks pre and post 9-11 - sometimes using 'unapproved' techniques to prevent those attacks. They missed one, and they may well miss another one at some point, but they're batting around 99%.

adam atherton · Post by **adam atherton** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:52 pm

bassjones wrote:they're batting around 99%.

man, i hope you mean .999!

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:56 pm

sometimes using 'unapproved' techniques to prevent those attacks.

So if the terrorists use 'unapproved' techniques to achieve their goals, how are we any different?

I just am so fearful of that kind of stuff; torture, secret prisons, etc. How does think make America any better at telling other nations / governments how to do business? How does that make the job of making America 'safe' any easier?

Maybe I'm too paranoid, maybe it seems like everything is going the way of 1984.

The duality of America is interesting and frightening.

the CIA has prevented thousands of terrorist attacks pre and post 9-11

Do you have any links? I would think if this were the case the government would publicize this (but maybe they're keeping it a secret!). If anything it would show a positive step on the 'war on terror'.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:00 pm

So you don't like the way things were "advertised", but the method/tactics/etc were OK with you?

I wouldn't use the word 'advertised'. If he was trying to convince America that we were only doing this to help the Iraqi people then I probably would have thrown him my support. However this wasn't the case; IMHO the iraqi people are on the short list of important things over there.

The tactics were OK at first then it quickly slid into a quagmere. Remember when we were pulling down Saddam's statues and the Iraqi people cheered us? Something went array from then until now. IMHO of course; I'm honestly not a military tactician.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:02 pm

It's different because one is trying to prevent attacks. I didn't mention torture anywhere... funny you automatically think I meant torture.

adam atherton · Post by **adam atherton** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:48 pm

and why, Jay, would you think "posting links" would do anything to better any of your cases?

why not take some time and post an independent thought rather than post internet links (sorry- we ALL know those are ALL 100% truth) and back it up with reasoning?

and as far as the dozens....hundreds....possibly thousands of attacks foiled....

i'd personally rather NOT know how. all i need to know is, in 5 years after the biggest terror attack on our nation, we have not been hit again on our soil.

you need only read about the facts (these are things that are truths, and you can typically not find by quoting random wiki pages and left wing extremist websites) that there are several that have been foiled.

regardless, i understand Green Day told you to hate Bush....and i understand no matter how safe and alive he has kept you, you will still find a way to hate him. regardless of how unfounded it is (and according to random wiki pages and left wing extremist websites that seem to make up all your thoughts for you).

but let's come up with a good argument against this. because none of you are keeping up with the Jones' this time around.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:05 pm

and why, Jay, would you think "posting links" would do anything to better any of your cases?

It gives the possibility of a source check. I know not all links can be trusted but I'm willing to give a read to most anything. With as much info that's out there some of it can be hard to find.

That's why I attach links anyways. So someone can verify my information. Otherwise I'm just pulling numbers and quotes out of my ass.

why not take some time and post an independent thought rather than post internet links (sorry- we ALL know those are ALL 100% truth) than form an independent thought and back it up with reasoning?

Do you think I just input web information and then spit it out? Sorry man but I don't. I've put a lot of thought into this situation and quite honestly the whole thing scares me; and the thing is I'm not afraid of the terrorists.

I have a few friends in the military and I honestly do not want to see them exploited in any fashion. Yes they voluntered for the job; but they might not agree with the mission. I know they are doing great things where ever they are deployed, I don't need a news story about that. I'd honestly like to see some more of them; but neither side of the major news media seems to want to show that.

Maybe I'm an optimist; but I like to think I'm a realist. I just don't understand how you can change a region with violence. I don't think the random casuality cares about his regions fight for freedom; they just know it's better to be alive.

I've always said if we could guarantee water and power to every Iraqi; that the violence would almost cease. But this government can't handle internal disasters; why should I trust them with this generations young men and women at war? Once again an optimistic goal but I think this would actually change hearts and minds.

Anyways, I'm rambling.

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:16 pm

adam atherton wrote:regardless, i understand Green Day told you to hate Bush....

Man, this makes you sound like an out of touch, bitter, old coot. You're not talking to 12 year-olds here, Dr. Phil.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:14 am

you need only read about the facts (these are things that are truths, and you can typically not find by quoting random wiki pages and left wing extremist websites) that there are several that have been foiled.

It's funny you mention I need to 'read the facts' but odds are I'm going to read them on the internet. I don't subscribe to any newspaper and unfortunally the Indiana News Center doesn't have the hard hitting coverage I seek.

I don't know why you're so bent out of shape about posting a link to back up a quote, fact, ect. At least it shows where the information is coming from.

regardless, i understand Green Day told you to hate Bush....and i understand no matter how safe and alive he has kept you, you will still find a way to hate him. regardless of how unfounded it is (and according to random wiki pages and left wing extremist websites that seem to make up all your thoughts for you).

Unfounded? I do not trust our government. Why? The failures of Katrina. The war in Iraq. Secret prisons and the treatment of 'detainees' AKA illegal combatants. The Phone Wire tap program. I could go on an on.

It's not my fault that when our president speaks he sounds like a 10 grade dropout who can't properly pronounce words and then compose them into sentences and *gasp* paragraphs. When he talks it's like I'm listening to a 15 year old reading his book report, not a president attempting to lead this nation.

I don't hate Bush though, I just don't think he's the best man for the job.

but let's come up with a good argument against this. because none of you are keeping up with the Jones' this time around.

I think it's funny that we don't listen to the UN (remember they didn't want us to invade Iraq) but then we expect every other country to snap to their resolutions. My advice, disban the UN. It needs to be rebuilt anew; unfortunally we don't have the leadership for this.

On Iraq, it's too late now; we're in too deep. We do need to finish the job; but I'm not going to forget about why we're in this quagmere. I'm also not going to keep my mouth shut because this administration seems to equate disagrement with terrorist sympathies. For better results I'd get new leadership.

adam atherton · Post by **adam atherton** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 am

Massage...Bored wrote:
adam atherton wrote:regardless, i understand Green Day told you to hate Bush....

Man, this makes you sound like an out of touch, bitter, old coot. You're not talking to 12 year-olds here, Dr. Phil.

no, but i am talking to juveniles in one form. aren't i? hmm?

have fun playing the blame game. i really hope some of you people pull your heads out of your ass and stop pointing fingers.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:35 am

no, but i am talking to juveniles in one form. aren't i? hmm?

Dude you've got to stop talking to yourself then.

have fun playing the blame game. i really hope some of you people pull your heads out of your ass and stop pointing fingers.

I hope the same thing for all of us my friend.

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:47 am

I don't hate Bush though, I just don't think he's the best man for the job.

Respectfully,... then who might you favor/suggest?

and what might be a more prudent solution then?

(speaking of election time in 2008)