Open Letter to Promoters and Such..

[sharkmansix]

I didn't know a web site made a person a professional.

It sure helps.

I choose NOT to have a web site at this time.

That doesn't make you look professional. If anything it makes you look cheap. Also .AOL does not bode internet confidence.

If and when I find the right person/site designer to develop one for me I'll do it at that time. I am kept busy enough as it is without a web site.

You must have a hectic schedule to troll boards from another state.

yet infer that I am a "semi-professional"

Enough with the infering, you're semi-professional. You couldn't even give me general payment rates for musicians; but I'm supposed to believe you're a pro?

I've supported my family and put 2 kids thru college with music...you don't do that on a "semi-pro" basis.

I'm a semi-professional designer and I put myself through college. What's your point?

Enough of this now...what started out as a "rib" sure must have gotten to you. Now let it lie.

I'm not a sleeping dog.

[Oliver's Army]

I was kinda of hoping to get a straight answer for this.

So I guess I will be the one to ask....

What bands do you represent Recordstar? Names please.

[tiny]

.......


<crickets chirping>




Guess there's your answer, Ollie.

[Recordstar]

For the benefit of the uninformed...an answer WAS given to Oliver via private message. Oliver has not had the decency to reply to me regarding the information provided. Additionally, Sharkmansix and I have had numerous correspondence via private message to express each others point and to understand each others view of the subject matter. Oliver's requested information was also provided to Sharkmansix.

I found Sharkmansix to be an equitable individual, who after our conversations, was at least able to see where I was coming from, and I understanding his point of view. It was healthy dialog that we elected to keep private, no longer conversing the subject in this forum.

Olivers lack of response to me however, private or via the forum, gives others misinformation. The manner in which I elect to do business, is just that...my business. I never inferred I was an "agent". The money the INDIVIDUAL I manage makes is not something I wished to broadcast to the public. It is not the public's business. If I elect NOT to have a website that is no one's business but mine as it does not negate the quality of management I provide. Oh yes, I provided information to FWM on the individual I manage, however I have not seen anything posted in the "BANDS" forum to date...I assume FWM has been too busy to do the posting.

I did not realize what a volatile subject I was opening. Therefore I apologize to the sensitivities of those offended...however..you pay a plumber or an electrician what he is worth..why not a musician too??

[Oliver's Army]

I was out of town for the last few days on business and had very limited internet access. So a lengthy reply was not going to happen until I had time.

I did not reply because quite frankly I found this topic to be a dead horse that I no longer wanted to kick.

You have your opinions an I have mine, if you feel you were slighted because I did not take the time to inform the forum that you PM'ed me with information that you wanted to keep private, then just add that to the list of things that you are misinformed.

If you wanted people to know any information that you sent me privately, then you should have just posted it in the forum yourself.

This is no longer about managing bands, its about you telling me, and others, that everything we know is wrong, that we are stupid for 'falling' for club owners grand scheme to screw bands and how you are here to set everyone straight.

RecordStar, If you can change the system , then change it. Be our shining star and make it all better. Be the hero, I don't care. I honestly hope you can make change and I wish you the best of luck.

I know what I know, and you tell me (in so many words) I'm wrong and foolish.

Here's where the conversation ended for me.

[bassjones]

one caveat to what Zach said... homeless j. plays all original shows every time they play - including weekends at C-Street. But, they're the only exception I've seen.

[Garr]

don't know a single band that makes over $500 per week. poop I only know of one 'house' band that makes $2000 per/month.

There have been times when we pulled almost $1000 in a week, but that was about 5 years ago and that was a busy week. We played two 1 hour sets and then the full weekend at Peanuts and brought in $900.00 as a cover band.

As an original band, the biggest payday we had was $225 for a 45 minute set.

Cover bands can make around $1000+ per weekend if they regularly pull the crowd. That's the catch. You have to put 200+ wallets up to the bar every time you play to make that kind of bank.

[Oliver's Army]

And we all know a certain band in town that easily pulls in $1500-$2500 a weekend.

And what do I know, despite working with them for nearly two years.



Meh.

I'm done.

[sharkmansix]

There have been times when we pulled almost $1000 in a week, but that was about 5 years ago and that was a busy week. We played two 1 hour sets and then the full weekend at Peanuts and brought in $900.00 as a cover band.

But was this nearly $1000 a regular payment or a one time awesome thing?

[Garr]

our regular weekly intake was less because we weren't very ambitious about filling our calendar. After a year of playing out we had a good enough following to get $400 a night (for three hours of music) without too much hassle. If we booked Friday/Saturday at different clubs we'd make $800 a week without a problem.

[Recordstar]

I apologize to Oliver for not thinking he may have other activities that would take him away from responding to me.

I appreciate you keeping my respose private, but you could have had the courtesy to respond by private message to me.

There was never an issue about managing bands, it was about decent pay. I researched the area and found what I found. I didn't like it and commented on it and evidently hit a sore spot. So be it. It's your system and you have to live with it. It's not my job to change it, only the local musicians can do that, but if they're happy with it fine.

For the others out there...I am the personal manager of TimVargo..I work soley with him and his band and have no other clients. He keeps me busy enough. You can catch him at: timvargomusic.com and on MySpace.com/timvargo....these sites are available and are being upgraded at this time. Tim works primarily the casino circuit and Las Vegas, Armed Forces Entertainment tours and a European Tour via Skip Records. Local gigs are those of old clients that Tim has performed for in the past.

[conley]

...

[conley]

Quote:
I would say the venue's responsibility is almost none. Maybe some 'shout outs' about upcoming gig over the PA but that's about it.

That is such cow poopie, Jay. I can't believe you would even say that. If you're a cook in a restaraunt, are you also responsible for all the PR for your employer? No, you are hired to provide a service for the VENUE'S clientle. I have a huge turnout whenever I play at Henry's, but, play to an empty room at the Guesthouse......Are you really saying that it's ALL on me/ the performer? Really? If you decide to open a business, YOU had better be the one who promotes it. I absolutely agree that an artist should agressively promote oneself, but don't put it ALL on the performer. Promotion of an event is absolutely a shared responsiblity between the club & the performer (slightly more of the burden SHOULD go on the owner). C'mon, man. Damn, that's so anti-musician/ pro-bar owner.

As a full-time performer, I have to say that i agree with a lot of what Recordstar has to say. Take the Deer park sessions as an example. On the surface, a great idea. But, from a business standpoint, who really benefited? We had 3 parties involved: the promoter, the bar owner & the performers. The promoter got deservedly paid for organizing the event, the bar provided the facility & got paid by the patrons, the band got.......1 pitcher of beer. The questions that I pose: Did this show have a long-term benificial affect on the musical community? i.e. How many of those bands that participated at the Deer Park Sessions are playing there now, regularly? REGULARLY. Please don't take this as a slam, it's just an observation of tangible facts from a business perspective.

Yes, I do this first & foremost for the love of music. But, when bands out there are constantly playing for free, they are doing a disservice to themselves and the rest of the musical community. What I mean by this is that you are conditioning bar owners to think that they can get "free" entertainment. You really lower the value of your product if you constantly play for free. Sure, if you're just kick'n things off, you may need to sacrifice your price. An occasional showcase or battle of the band participation is cool too; but, have you notice how damn many battles & showcases there are these days? Well, that isn't because these venues want to support local music, it's because they are getting free entertainment. Hello?

I guess my perspective changed when I was doing a private party a few years back. I was charging $150.00 for the gig.....The jugglar, at the same party, was getting paid $600.00. At that point, I really had to ask myself what my time & effort was worth. As a performer, you work too hard to undervalue your time.

Please keep in mind, this is my business perspective of things. As performing musicians, we have a living, breathing product that we are trying to sell, and that is OURSELVES. I think that there has to be some sort of a value to that, don't you?

[Massage...Bored]

I would still rather play for free than haggle with someone about money.

[sharkmansix]

That is such cow poopie, Jay. I can't believe you would even say that. If you're a cook in a restaraunt, are you also responsible for all the PR for your employer? No, you are hired to provide a service for the VENUE'S clientle. I have a huge turnout whenever I play at Henry's, but, play to an empty room at the Guesthouse......Are you really saying that it's ALL on me/ the performer? Really? If you decide to open a business, YOU had better be the one who promotes it. I absolutely agree that an artist should agressively promote oneself, but don't put it ALL on the performer. Promotion of an event is absolutely a shared responsiblity between the club & the performer (slightly more of the burden SHOULD go on the owner). C'mon, man. Damn, that's so anti-musician/ pro-bar owner.

I like to think of it as anti-unprofessional musician. There are so many bands in the city that think they are the best think since sliced bread; but in reality they are just 4 guys who can put together a song. Why should a venue put money down for unproven talent?

If anything they are already putting money into the act by providing them the space to play.

Like you said "If you decide to open a business, YOU had better be the one who promotes it." Being a professional musician is a business; so following your own advice you'd better promote.

As a full-time performer, I have to say that i agree with a lot of what Recordstar has to say. Take the Deer park sessions as an example. On the surface, a great idea. But, from a business standpoint, who really benefited? We had 3 parties involved: the promoter, the bar owner & the performers. The promoter got deservedly paid for organizing the event, the bar provided the facility & got paid by the patrons, the band got.......1 pitcher of beer. The questions that I pose: Did this show have a long-term benificial affect on the musical community? i.e. How many of those bands that participated at the Deer Park Sessions are playing there now, regularly? REGULARLY. Please don't take this as a slam, it's just an observation of tangible facts from a business perspective

As a professional did you look and sign a contract? If so all of those terms should have been addressed within it. If not read the fine print my man.

Yes, I do this first & foremost for the love of music. But, when bands out there are constantly playing for free, they are doing a disservice to themselves and the rest of the musical community. What I mean by this is that you are conditioning bar owners to think that they can get "free" entertainment. You really lower the value of your product if you constantly play for free. Sure, if you're just kick'n things off, you may need to sacrifice your price. An occasional showcase or battle of the band participation is cool too; but, have you notice how damn many battles & showcases there are these days? Well, that isn't because these venues want to support local music, it's because they are getting free entertainment. Hello?

I mostly agree. Everyone has to start somewhere Mike; and not everyone has been on the scene as long as you. However I think being given the opportunity to play is almost worth it's weight in gold.