Songwriting: Breaking Away from the I IV V
Moderators: MrSpall, bassjones, sevesd93, zenmandan
Songwriting: Breaking Away from the I IV V
I've been exploring my guitar quite a bit as of late and I can't help the irresistible draw to Tonic, Sub Dominant, Dominant. I know that actually discussing music on this message board is a big no-no, but how do you songwriters out there find ways to break free from your comfortable progression patterns?
Against my better judgment, I'm also going to say that I play primarily in drop tunings (either drop D or drop C) and I think that it might be contributing to this rut, but I'm not sure.
Help?
Against my better judgment, I'm also going to say that I play primarily in drop tunings (either drop D or drop C) and I think that it might be contributing to this rut, but I'm not sure.
Help?
Last edited by Garr on Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
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Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.BestDailyMemes.com]BestDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
[url=http://www.NuZuDu.com]NuZuDu.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FireFlyGoods.com]FireFlyGoods.com[/url]
[url=http://www.ThePeopleBlog.com]ThePeopleBlog.com[/url]
[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
alternate minor for verses, start on a minor chord (6, 2 or 3), 6-2-5 turnarounds, chord inversions, Maj/Min 7 chords, altertnate tunings. Force yourself to listen to non I-IV-V music for a while. The minor 6 is a very useful chord.
"brad!
...your tunes and your playing sound really great... all the best to you and god bless-
adam nitti" www.myspace.com/adamnittimusic
www.bradjonesbass.com
http://groups.myspace.com/northeastindianabassplayers
www.myspace.com/bassjones
www.myspace.com/whitehotnoise
www.esession.com/bradjones - hire me for your session from anywhere in the world.
...your tunes and your playing sound really great... all the best to you and god bless-
adam nitti" www.myspace.com/adamnittimusic
www.bradjonesbass.com
http://groups.myspace.com/northeastindianabassplayers
www.myspace.com/bassjones
www.myspace.com/whitehotnoise
www.esession.com/bradjones - hire me for your session from anywhere in the world.
Re: Breaking Away from the I IV V
Ha! Good one.Garr wrote:I know that actually discussing music on this message board is a big no-no...
This is a huge problem for me too, Garr, because I write so much stuff, and I'm often working on several pieces at once. It's real easy for me to fall into stock changes that I particularly like the sound of. Here are some strategies that have worked for me.
1. Get a copy of "The Billboard Book of Top 40 Hits." Page through it, and when you come across a song that makes you think, "oh, yeah, that was really cool sounding," figure out the chords.
2. Buy a huge book of guitar chords, one of those that shows several voicings any given chord. Learn some really whack inversions or some kind of nutty extended harmony things. Play them over and over til you really grok what comes next. Then force yourself to write something that uses that chord. Even if the resulting tune sucks and you never use it, you'll learn something.
3. Figure out your own chord shapes for some kind of old jazz tune, like Monk's "Round Midnight" (same chords as the theme from Perry Mason, BTW, it'll crack your head open). Don't cheat! Use your ear to figure out all the notes in the chord.
4. Listen to some music that you wouldn't normally listen to. I get forced into this all the time because a client will say, "We want a polka/big band/hip-hop/arena rock thing." (those are variations... nobody ever asked for all that at once, although once came close.)
5. Learn some songs by They Might Be Giants.
These strategies work for me.
Those are some great suggestions. I feel a little bit lost in them, but that's really what I was looking for. Somewhere I heard or read once that change only occurs when you are uncomfortable, so that's a good sign that I'm a bit out of element with it.
I will have to whip out my giant chord book(s) and start thumbing through them. I have two fairly decent chord encyclopedias, so I'll grab on to those.
Does anyone have any good resources for understanding what is in key and what is out?
I will have to whip out my giant chord book(s) and start thumbing through them. I have two fairly decent chord encyclopedias, so I'll grab on to those.
Does anyone have any good resources for understanding what is in key and what is out?
There are 10 types of people in the world.
Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
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[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
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[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
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[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.BestDailyMemes.com]BestDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
[url=http://www.NuZuDu.com]NuZuDu.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FireFlyGoods.com]FireFlyGoods.com[/url]
[url=http://www.ThePeopleBlog.com]ThePeopleBlog.com[/url]
[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
The boppers, Stravinsky, Charles Ives and a whole lot of rock musicians have pretty much shattered the concept of "in key."
Seriously, just follow your ear. Almost anything can work. In music school, they told me that parallel fifths in a progression were very, very bad. I write them all the time. Rock music (which my professors looked upon with scorn) made them okay.
If it sounds good, it is good.
I agree on going outside your comfort zone. For me, the biggest liberating thing was simply giving myself permission to totally f*ck up. I mean, nobody's listening but me when I'm writing and practicing, right? Go for it! Go random, or try to play something you know you can't do. You learn something every time.
I'm a very poor sight reader. So forcing myself to really READ the piano parts from the "Nightfly" album and learn them note-for-note was a huge forward mover. I couldn't play those songs now if you held a gun to my head (well, maybe I could play "New Frontier" and get it right), but what I learned about harmony while playing them is still with me.
Seriously, just follow your ear. Almost anything can work. In music school, they told me that parallel fifths in a progression were very, very bad. I write them all the time. Rock music (which my professors looked upon with scorn) made them okay.
If it sounds good, it is good.
I agree on going outside your comfort zone. For me, the biggest liberating thing was simply giving myself permission to totally f*ck up. I mean, nobody's listening but me when I'm writing and practicing, right? Go for it! Go random, or try to play something you know you can't do. You learn something every time.
I'm a very poor sight reader. So forcing myself to really READ the piano parts from the "Nightfly" album and learn them note-for-note was a huge forward mover. I couldn't play those songs now if you held a gun to my head (well, maybe I could play "New Frontier" and get it right), but what I learned about harmony while playing them is still with me.
So are you saying to worry less about the numbers and more about the sound? That's pretty much the way I've played/written through my whole musical "career." I thought I was breaking all kinds of rules. I am a classically trained vocalist (all city choir, all state choir, jazz, troubadour, swing choirs, and 1st places many years in a row at ISSMA), but I dropped out of it just shy of being forced to learn to sight read for competitions. I always felt like I did myself a major disservice in that.
How much benefit is there in forcing myself to learn intervals and the math behind them? I mean is it important to know that a melodic minor changes on the way down, or to learn the shapes of the modes and how to apply them, or is that really a waste of time?
How much benefit is there in forcing myself to learn intervals and the math behind them? I mean is it important to know that a melodic minor changes on the way down, or to learn the shapes of the modes and how to apply them, or is that really a waste of time?
There are 10 types of people in the world.
Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.BestDailyMemes.com]BestDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
[url=http://www.NuZuDu.com]NuZuDu.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FireFlyGoods.com]FireFlyGoods.com[/url]
[url=http://www.ThePeopleBlog.com]ThePeopleBlog.com[/url]
[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.BestDailyMemes.com]BestDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
[url=http://www.NuZuDu.com]NuZuDu.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FireFlyGoods.com]FireFlyGoods.com[/url]
[url=http://www.ThePeopleBlog.com]ThePeopleBlog.com[/url]
[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
I think there's plenty of value in understanding enough theory that you get the "structure" (for want of a better word, it's just how I think of it) of harmony. What I mean is, sure, randomness and ear-judgment is good, but you should know where the tonic is and that you're playing a a major second (not a ninth) and a sixth in that chord.
Modal playing is more soloing thing (to my mind... I'm sure monster-chiller-horror theory master Dave Latchaw knows how to apply them in everything he may do), but it's not hard to understand. If you can play a major scale and move it around the fretboard, you can play in all the modes. There are a couple of good books on that subject, too.
But is your focus songwriting or becoming a hot soloist?
Modal playing is more soloing thing (to my mind... I'm sure monster-chiller-horror theory master Dave Latchaw knows how to apply them in everything he may do), but it's not hard to understand. If you can play a major scale and move it around the fretboard, you can play in all the modes. There are a couple of good books on that subject, too.
But is your focus songwriting or becoming a hot soloist?
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What he said!Silencio wrote:
Seriously, just follow your ear. Almost anything can work. In music school, they told me that parallel fifths in a progression were very, very bad. I write them all the time. Rock music (which my professors looked upon with scorn) made them okay.
If it sounds good, it is good.
..., the biggest liberating thing was simply giving myself permission to totally f*ck up. I mean, nobody's listening but me when I'm writing and practicing, right? Go for it! Go random, or try to play something you know you can't do. You learn something every time.
.
Less is always more
Less is always more
I tend to find progressional inspiration in experimenting with scales. I generally think in terms of scales, not really solos. I mean, I enjoy digging in and ripping away, but guitar parts that write tend to have a scaly feel to them.
I also like "inventing" wicked chords of which I have NO clue what they really are. I just dig the different sounds
I also like "inventing" wicked chords of which I have NO clue what they really are. I just dig the different sounds
There are 10 types of people in the world.
Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.BestDailyMemes.com]BestDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
[url=http://www.NuZuDu.com]NuZuDu.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FireFlyGoods.com]FireFlyGoods.com[/url]
[url=http://www.ThePeopleBlog.com]ThePeopleBlog.com[/url]
[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
Those who understand binary. . .
. . .and those who don't.
[url]http://www.garrmusic.com[/url]
Check out these sites:
[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.BestDailyMemes.com]BestDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FortWayneMusic.om]FortWayneMusic.om[/url]
[url=http://www.Kwalis.com]Kwalis.com[/url]
[url=http://www.SoHumorous.com]SoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FailUniversity.com]FailUniversity.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
[url=http://www.NuZuDu.com]NuZuDu.com[/url]
[url=http://www.FireFlyGoods.com]FireFlyGoods.com[/url]
[url=http://www.ThePeopleBlog.com]ThePeopleBlog.com[/url]
[url=http://www.StealMyMemes.com]StealMyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.DontStealMyMemes.com]DontStealMyMemes.com[/url]
More to come...
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Could you guys please stop all the constructive music chat?
You're messing with my opportunities for irony, sarcasm and irritability.
You're messing with my opportunities for irony, sarcasm and irritability.
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FaceFullOf.com
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FireFlyGoods.com
ThePeopleBlog.com
StealMyMemes.com
DontStealMyMemes.com
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OhSoHumorous.com
TopDailyMemes.com
BestDailyMemes.com
FortWayneMusic.om
Kwalis.com
SoHumorous.com
FailUniversity.com
FaceFullOf.com
NuZuDu.com
FireFlyGoods.com
ThePeopleBlog.com
StealMyMemes.com
DontStealMyMemes.com
More to come...
I'm taking up a collection to pay some kids to go stand on Ollie's lawn. Who's in?Oliver's Army wrote:Could you guys please stop all the constructive music chat?
You're messing with my opportunities for irony, sarcasm and irritability.
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That second thing is the "randomness" I advocate. The trick is to really, really listen to what you're playing, and to come to understand it in terms of theory.Garr wrote:I generally think in terms of scales, not really solos. I mean, I enjoy digging in and ripping away, but guitar parts that write tend to have a scaly feel to them.
I also like "inventing" wicked chords of which I have NO clue what they really are. I just dig the different sounds
When I solo, I try to play melodies. I know my fave scales and I've got placeholder licks just like everybody does, but I try to simply "sing" a melody line, more like a horn player. That's why I haven't developed horrifying shred chops.... too busy listening to the melody to learn licks.
Ollie, go ahead and get all snarky all over. This thread could use some leavening. And shortening. (Not shortnening like making it shorter... shortening like Crisco. The kind mammy's lilttle babby likes.)
Yeah, but only if they pee in his bushes. . . . .G Fresh wrote:
I'm taking up a collection to pay some kids to go stand on Ollie's lawn. Who's in?
"Yesterday Mr. Hall wrote that the printer's proof-reader was improving my punctuation for me, & I telegraphed orders to have him shot without giving him time to pray." -Mark Twain
"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist."
Ayn Rand
". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe, and saw."
"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist."
Ayn Rand
". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe, and saw."
The drummer has to chime in here and say throw in some different grooves / feels. Nothing more boring than hearing an album full of songs that chug along all in 4/4 at the same speed. Throw in some Latin overtones, some reggae, maybe a shuffle-er some kind of 12/8.
If you throw in some odd time sigs, try to make them sound so natural that someone doesn't realize they are in there unless they try to play the song, I mean, don't throw in an odd sig just for an odd sig's sake.
If you throw in some odd time sigs, try to make them sound so natural that someone doesn't realize they are in there unless they try to play the song, I mean, don't throw in an odd sig just for an odd sig's sake.
"Yesterday Mr. Hall wrote that the printer's proof-reader was improving my punctuation for me, & I telegraphed orders to have him shot without giving him time to pray." -Mark Twain
"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist."
Ayn Rand
". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe, and saw."
"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist."
Ayn Rand
". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe, and saw."
and encourage your bass player to get off the root, he can imply a chord inversion by playing the 3rd, 5th or 7th instead and may open your ear to the next chord.
"brad!
...your tunes and your playing sound really great... all the best to you and god bless-
adam nitti" www.myspace.com/adamnittimusic
www.bradjonesbass.com
http://groups.myspace.com/northeastindianabassplayers
www.myspace.com/bassjones
www.myspace.com/whitehotnoise
www.esession.com/bradjones - hire me for your session from anywhere in the world.
...your tunes and your playing sound really great... all the best to you and god bless-
adam nitti" www.myspace.com/adamnittimusic
www.bradjonesbass.com
http://groups.myspace.com/northeastindianabassplayers
www.myspace.com/bassjones
www.myspace.com/whitehotnoise
www.esession.com/bradjones - hire me for your session from anywhere in the world.