Last night Senate passed "Child Custody & Protectio

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Grindspine
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Post by Grindspine »

bassjones wrote:Which is why I wasn't having sex when I was 16. I was mature enough to know that I wasn't mature enough to raise or help raise a child. If you're not mature enough to raise a child, you're not mature enough to be having sexual intercourse. <-emphasis on the period!

And yes, perhaps we should walk in the shoes of the unborn before we determine they're not quite human, and inflict pain and death upon them.
Ohhh, you so piss me off...

a) You OBVIOUSLY don't know me. I wasn't having sex at 16 because I was too busy with school, wrestling team, work and playing guitar in two bands... I didn't have time for a girlfriend. Remember, when you ASSume, you make an ASS out of you and me. (And this is me being an butthead pointing out what an butthead you are being.)
If you're not mature enough to raise a child, you're not mature enough to be having sexual intercourse. <-emphasis on the period!
Funny thing is that the legality of it all is that the age of consent in Indiana is 16. Therefore, the LAW says that at 16, a person can legally make the decision to have or not to have sex. Therefore, the laws regarding reproductive (or birth control) rights should legally be linked to the same age...

Know anything about consistancy?
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Post by Oliver's Army »

Grindspine wrote:
Funny thing is that the legality of it all is that the age of consent in Indiana is 16. Therefore, the LAW says that at 16, a person can legally make the decision to have or not to have sex. Therefore, the laws regarding reproductive (or birth control) rights should legally be linked to the same age...
Not to stir the pot.....

Are you SURE about this?

I understood it as unless you legally emancipated yourself from your family BEFORE the age of 18 you were still under the guardianship of your parents.
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Post by Grindspine »

Oliver's Army wrote: Not to stir the pot.....

Are you SURE about this?

I understood it as unless you legally emancipated yourself from your family BEFORE the age of 18 you were still under the guardianship of your parents.
Nah, you're not stirring anything. For clarification, I'm trying to find the exact law on www.state.in.us but am only finding laws concerning sexual molestation of a minor being someone below the age of 16.

I'll post the exact code if I can dig it up. But it'll have to wait 'til tomorrow since I work tonight.

So, oddly enough, guardianship and age of consent are not the same age either.
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Post by Garr »

If the adult parents were doing their job (yes, I know, a generalized statement) in the first place, the child-parent-to-be would have probably already been open with them.

Good parenting would have left the child capable of making better decisions and comfortable enough to have communicated with them when they misjudged the consequences of sexual activity.

After the damage is done is a bit late for a parent to be throwing fits about what they didn't know. The government should keep themselves out of it and parents should be responsible for their children. But today, many parents are lazy and are more than willing to shrug off the responsiblity on the state and the schools, but they want all the control in saying how it's handled.

Well, if you care enough to get upset with how it's being handled, maybe you should do it yourself.
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Post by jewlee138 »

bassjones wrote: I wasn't having sex when I was 16. I was mature enough to know that I wasn't mature enough to raise or help raise a child. If you're not mature enough to raise a child, you're not mature enough to be having sexual intercourse. <-emphasis on the period!
I wasn't having sex @ 16, either (I was raised a good Catholic girl :wink:)... but I sure as hell do now & still don't consider myself mature enough to raise a child. I'm thankful for the options I've had available throughout the years and equally thankful that I haven't had to utilize any of the more "extreme" options.
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Post by bassjones »

jewlee138 wrote:
bassjones wrote: I wasn't having sex when I was 16. I was mature enough to know that I wasn't mature enough to raise or help raise a child. If you're not mature enough to raise a child, you're not mature enough to be having sexual intercourse. <-emphasis on the period!
I wasn't having sex @ 16, either (I was raised a good Catholic girl :wink:)... but I sure as hell do now & still don't consider myself mature enough to raise a child. I'm thankful for the options I've had available throughout the years and equally thankful that I haven't had to utilize any of the more "extreme" options.
I'm not a moralist, and you're obviously mature enough to make mature decisions regarding birth control. That's perfectly fine with me. My problem lies in strangers (to the parents at least) taking over the parenting role with young, impressionable girls (and boys, but this discussion primarily involves girls) and taking them to Planned Parenthood for potentially dangerous contraceptives or to an abortion clinic for an abortion without their parents' knowledge, much less consent. That's not cool. And it shouldn't be legal.
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Post by bassjones »

Grindspine wrote:
bassjones wrote:Which is why I wasn't having sex when I was 16. I was mature enough to know that I wasn't mature enough to raise or help raise a child. If you're not mature enough to raise a child, you're not mature enough to be having sexual intercourse. <-emphasis on the period!

And yes, perhaps we should walk in the shoes of the unborn before we determine they're not quite human, and inflict pain and death upon them.
Ohhh, you so piss me off...

a) You OBVIOUSLY don't know me. I wasn't having sex at 16 because I was too busy with school, wrestling team, work and playing guitar in two bands... I didn't have time for a girlfriend. Remember, when you ASSume, you make an ASS out of you and me. (And this is me being an assh*le pointing out what an assh*le you are being.)
If you're not mature enough to raise a child, you're not mature enough to be having sexual intercourse. <-emphasis on the period!
Funny thing is that the legality of it all is that the age of consent in Indiana is 16. Therefore, the LAW says that at 16, a person can legally make the decision to have or not to have sex. Therefore, the laws regarding reproductive (or birth control) rights should legally be linked to the same age...

Know anything about consistancy?
Why so angry with me? I wasn't directing that at you or implying (or assuming) you were being irresponsible at 16, I was merely responding to your earlier statement. You seem to assume I'm pointing fingers when I'm not. I was just stating why I was not engaging in sex at that age.

As to medical decisions, I disagree with you. Parents are legally and ethically responsible for their child's medical care until they are a legal adult. If the parent is responsible for the child's care, they have a right to know what that "care" involves, and they have a right to deny that care they feel is immoral. Of course, I don't think anyone, anywhere, anytime should have access to abortion - life of mother exceptions, but that's it....
"brad!
...your tunes and your playing sound really great... all the best to you and god bless-
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Post by Garr »

bassjones wrote: Of course, I don't think anyone, anywhere, anytime should have access to abortion - life of mother exceptions, but that's it....
Statements like this are the seeds of dictatorship.

Saying that you think that people should not HAVE abortions is cool, but saying that they should not be able to have options and make their own decisions is just plain evil in my book.
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Post by bassjones »

Okay, then I don't think people should have slaves... I don't think people should discriminate in hiring decisions based on race/sex/gender/etc... I don't think men should beat their wives or children... I don't think men should rape women... I don't think anyone should kill another person other than in self-defense...

But laws preventing those things have the makings of dictatorship...
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Post by Garr »

Well, this again comes down to the definition of life, when it begins, and at what point something has rights. The other infractions you list involve the violation of another human's rights. I don't support abortion, nor do I think I would actually push for someone pregnant with my progeny to have one, but this is where you and I differ because I DO support a person's right to make that decision for themselves. This is the line where no agreement will be made and discussion beyond this point is futile. I won't change my stance on where life begins, nor do I expect you to.

Knowing the little that I know about biology, and what I learned during the development of my child, I don't see a human until a fetus has reached the state where it could maintain life outside the womb without medical or mechanical assistance.
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Post by BasSmArt »

I think what the law is really concerned with is two things:

1) Denying a minor mother's ability to choose an abortion if they want one. There are pleny of parents with faith who would make their daughter have the kid even if the daddy was long gone and the daughter would be having a child with a body that wasn't fully developed.

I think concern 1 is the primary concern, "justified" by concern 2.

2) The safety and whereabouts of young girls when they take off for a clinic.

To me, both concerns are issues regarding safety of the young girls. It's too bad that young girls aren't given the executive right in these decisions and merely have to file a paper that court orders the parents to abide by her decision (not that I think she needs permission). Then everyone would know what's up.

If it's an option, I suggest for young girls to divorce their parents and then get the abortion if parents won't permit you to abort a zygote. Or read up on how to induce miscarriages. Ultimately, hopefully no law can stop a girl who doesn't want to give birth.

It would be better if parents chose to be supportive of a girl's decision rather than controlling of their daughter's ethics. Safe abortions with a doc are certainly better than other ways. Currently, I think the bigger problem for these girls is often getting the cash at that age to have an abortion. Another reason social medical care would be beneficial.

And really, who should be making the decision about aborting a zygote, the minor mother (who will be responsible for the child for a couple decades) or the parents (who do not raise the child or have to have anything to do with it for less than 2 years)...by the time the kid is born, the girl will be just shy of 18 anyway.
______
On another note regarding laws being passed and abolished for Christian Right agendas...

My bro and his gf have been together for 7 years and they looked into whether they were a common law marriage a few weeks ago.

Apparently Indiana abolished the law...supposedly because it made a good case for legal homosexual and lesbian marriages. Sighs...
Last edited by BasSmArt on Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grindspine »

Well put, Bassmart...
bassjones wrote:I don't think anyone, anywhere, anytime should have access to abortion
And that's why you'd support this law, Bassjones. It fundamentally makes access to abortion more difficult for someone, somewhere, so you support it because you're against all abortion save the life of mother cases, as you just plainly stated.
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Post by BasSmArt »

I'm reading The War on Choice: The Right Wing Attack on Women's Rights and How to Fight Back by Gloria Feldt's right now.

In her book she talks a lot about how the Right-Wing folks are passing laws trying to make abortion extremely difficult for people to obtain rather than directly attacking the issue of abortion itself.

To me this approach itself suggests that not even the right-wings believe they can logically push their agenda through normal law channels that would directly address the issue...such as in the Supreme Court. So instead, safety is made the chief argument for all their reasoning.

To illustrate some Right-Wing hypocrisy...just as safety and non-existent reasons have been made the chief national reason for a war (keep in mind this was due to a case incident on 9/11) against terrorists who might strike again if our defense was choppy, abortion has been deemed a safety issue by Right-Wings when practiced for the infrequent incidents. To me, their reasoning is totally debunked by the fact that birth is (not might be) a safety concern for young females and probably more so than having an abortion.

But just as our safety is in danger from terrorists who bomb our country, our safety is compromised by laws that make having abortions extremely difficult to obtain.

Even if it did boil down to conservatives taking away the accessibility of abortions, there's really no way they can stop people from inducing them on their own. Worst-case scenario is that this turns out like prohibition, people doing the deed behind closed doors.

The Right-Wing actions regarding the new law are about as dumb as making suicide illegal. No one can regulate your body without physically forcing you...and even then, the public doesn't want to spend the money on it. We'd be Big Brother if we even tried.

PLUS, I bet that if you throw more birth control, affordable abortions, and sex ed at the poor rather than pushing them onto the early single parenting path, you right-wings would have less people going into the welfare system.

So here's a link to an article I read on CNN the other day about sex education making teens aware of AIDS and birth control.

"Experts point out that teen sexual activity has dropped as use of condoms increased -- both largely due to fear of AIDS."

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/fyi/ ... index.html
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Post by Grindspine »

Who was it that said that any man willing to give up freedom for safety deserves neither?
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Post by WBOB »

They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
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