....but the Bible says.....

Myrddin · Post by **Myrddin** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:04 pm

Edited from an open (no credit) letter posted on the Internet asking for further specific advice

Background: A US radio personality who dispenses advice recently said, "As an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 8:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance."

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price?

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who works on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I wear reading glasses. Is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle, a farmer, violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10 16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

Yes, this does "... demonstrate the folly of extracting one" biblical passage "and using it to justify a moral position." Or in other words, George Carlin's specifically, "Keep your religion to yourself."

Somebody once figured out that we have 35 million laws trying to enforce 10 commandments. - Unknown

Oliver's Army · Post by **Oliver's Army** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:40 pm

But those aren't the 10 commandments.

The rest is misguided representation.

As a terrible Christian even I find these amusing at best.

Myrddin · Post by **Myrddin** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:47 pm

Oliver's Army wrote:But those aren't the 10 commandments.

The rest is misguided representation.

As a terrible Christian even I find these amusing at best.

I think the last quote was just thrown in as a general point.

As for the rest being misguided.....so are idiots that use the Bible as a justification for spreading bigotry and hatred.

Amusing yes....but the "hidden" meaning is what's important.

Oliver's Army · Post by **Oliver's Army** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:56 pm

Please dont assume that *most* Christains think like this.

Myrddin · Post by **Myrddin** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:21 pm

I don't, I have many great friends who are Christian. It's just the fools that do that make me angry.

What gets me is how terrorists use Islam as a means to justify their actions. So what seperates them from the those who use any religion to justify killing and terrorism. Aside from maybe a bomb strapped to the chest.

I saw on the news the other day, that there were people going to funerals of homosexuals who had died of AIDS. They were protesting and waving signs basically saying (and I paraphrase) that god is happy they are dead and so on.

It's actions like this which angers me.

heaven's chimney · Post by **heaven's chimney** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:56 pm

Oliver's Army wrote:But those aren't the 10 commandments.

The rest is misguided representation.

honest questions:

1) And where does it say that the ten commandments should be revered over the other laws?

2) Where does it say which laws jesus doesn't want us to continue anymore?

3) what is misguided representation?

It's actions like this which angers me.

That's godhatesfags.com. They were in Fort Wayne last year. THAT flipped me ooooooooooooooooooout.

by the way, this list has been out for at least a few years now. i first read it as "Letters to Jesus" but it's been bastardized sevenfold. (b7x)

Oliver's Army · Post by **Oliver's Army** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:08 pm

Heaven...

With all due repespect I will not be involved in this conversation much, if at all for several reasons.

1. I am not schooled enough in the scriptures to give a solid input to any debate.
2. You would totally smoke me if I did.

I feel the list is misguided because it is taken so literally it is laughable. NONE of the churches I have EVER attended teaches these passages literally.

My initial concern is that people, especially those who have no faith, think that THIS is how most Christians think.

I for one do not.

I equate being lumped like that to saying because I am white, I am a rich consevative.

I express my opinion when applicable and politelty bow out when needed.

I will leave the debate to those more informed and passionate than myself.

Myrddin · Post by **Myrddin** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:21 pm

Actually in the very first post the quote is said to have come from an Orthodox Jew. So no mention of Christianity was made.

I don't lump this in with anyone other then idiots.

heaven's chimney · Post by **heaven's chimney** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:55 pm

Oliver's Army wrote:I feel the list is misguided because it is taken so literally it is laughable. NONE of the churches I have EVER attended teaches these passages literally.

I agree, as that's really the intended purpose of what was written - to be a joke.

But for as funny as it is, and as ridiculous as it is, it was gospel truth to a lot of people. We're seeing the barbaric relics of a time long passed.

Right myr guy? "I don't lump this in with anyone other then idiots."

Yes, only forking completely moronic idiots could get down with taking these biblical passages literally. The problem is that people still do. There are videos on the internet of women being stoned to death. It's also important to look at our own form of lethal punishment - you can rationalize all you want, but fundamentally, it's all the same.

It's also important to look at homophobia: the barbaric relic of a time long passed. The bible is indeed anti-homosexuals. And how do people rationally defend their homophobia? In two ways:

1) It's not natural - well, obviously that's not true as it occurs constantly and consistently in nature. If by natural they mean consistent human practice, that's also obviously false - there wouldn't be laws against it if it didn't occur.

2) The bible says so.

Another problem: For all the stupid sh*t in the bible that isn't followed, a lot is. I dont think it's exactly slippery slope to expect that at any point, we are capable of deciding that the stupid parts of the bible SHOULD be followed. It could be another terrorist attack that demoralizes us. It could be some other sort of hysteria/fad. Either way, we are completely capable of turning a deaf ear to reason and taking the ENTIRE bible as truth - xtn fundamentalists anyone?

That's one of the reasons I'm completely contrary to christianity. It's dangerous to say "Ohhhh THIS part we believe, THIS part we dont" - because the day may come when slowly but surely, we've made it over to the "kill people wantonly part". Preachers/ministers are the same way: they've got defenses for every part of the bible.

"Ohhhh that? Yeah, we dont do that anymore."

"Well why not?"

"Because Jesus died for our sins and fulfilled the prophecies."

"Well then why do you still do any of the original stuff?"

"Because that's what Jesus would want."

"I dont get it. Why not just admit that this part is wrong and made by man" (I really did ask this once)

"If you admit any piece of the bible is wrong, what is to stop you from saying any other part is?" (The real answer I got)

My initial concern is that people, especially those who have no faith, think that THIS is how most Christians think.

But still, it IS the bible. No matter how ambiguous it has become to "be christian," it is STILL in the bible.

Oliver's Army · Post by **Oliver's Army** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:08 pm

B asic
I nstructions
B efore
L eaving
E arth

I dont look at it as a textbook.

Can't speak for the rest.

heaven's chimney · Post by **heaven's chimney** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:11 pm

did you just quote Gza?

to some extent you probably do treat it like a textbook. if it's just general instructions, like Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you wouldn't call yourself a christian - just like their aren't Coveyan churches.

Grindspine · Post by **Grindspine** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:22 pm

) Where does it say which laws jesus doesn't want us to continue anymore?

Jesus says in the books of the gospel (first 4 books of new testiment that all tell the story of Jesus's life from 4 different perspectives), that he gave two new commandments to be revered above all, "love the lord your god with all your heart, mind and soul and love they neighbor as thyself."

Though I am not christian, the point of the second of those two is well reflected through deontological ethics... Basically, show everyone some base level of respect as human beings.

Oliver's Army wrote: I feel the list is misguided because it is taken so literally it is laughable. NONE of the churches I have EVER attended teaches these passages literally.

I think that was the point of the letter. It was sent to a radio show personality who often gave advice based in biblical terms. However, one cannot justify actions today based on the book of Leviticus without following all laws given in the book without being a hypocrite. However, many people still base current beliefs on that book.

It's all pretty silly.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:30 pm

I've been avoiding posting, but here goes...

I happen to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. However, Jesus summed it up quite well with this. "The first and greatest commandment is this; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And the second is as the first; Love your neighbor as yourself."

Problem with some Christians is they tend to ignore the second commandment, which Jesus said is just as important as the first. If we loved our neighbor as ourself, even if we believed he was sinning by engaging in homosexual relations, we would still befriend him and still care for him. We would certainly not advocate beating him up, yelling slurs at him, keeping him from obtaining quality housing or a good job, or discriminating against him in any way, let alone engaging in it ourselves. I don't believe that prohibiting legal marriage is discriminatory, provided we don't prohibit him from living his life.

James said we are to correct our brother (that means fellow Christians, NOT unbelievers) in love and treat him gently so that he might repent and turn from his sin. That doesn't seem to indicate to me we are to show up at parades and carry signs that seek to humiliate, anger, or otherwise offend those we believe are living a sinful lifestyle.

Paul said men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and gave up his life for her. That certainly seems to make any historic or current belief that abuse or discriminatory treatment of women is okay absolutely inconsistent with biblical teaching, doesn't it? It does to me.

I could go on for days about this. Frankly, too many Christians have missed the boat. "Love God above all else, and love your neigbor as yourself." This is the way of Christianity.

heaven's chimney · Post by **heaven's chimney** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:40 pm

Grindspine wrote:Jesus says in the books of the gospel (first 4 books of new testiment that all tell the story of Jesus's life from 4 different perspectives), that he gave two new commandments to be revered above all, "love the lord your god with all your heart, mind and soul and love they neighbor as thyself."

ok.

but i have issues with that:

1) jesus didn't really feel or act like that
2) there's no logical reason to accept the second of jesus premises after everything else that's been said in the bible.

besides that, as bassjones said: there are literal interpretations of stuff. And you can't think someone is an abomination and still love them as yourself.

the point of the second of those two is well reflected through deontological ethics... Basically, show everyone some base level of respect as human beings.

Besides the point: Terrible and anthropocentric. If that's an ethics, it's made for one type of person: the oppressed. (However, it's not anthropocentric if it says to give respect to humans in a particular way because that's a particularity of humans - in other words, ethical consideration)

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:57 pm

besides that, as bassjones said: there are literal interpretations of stuff. And you can't think someone is an abomination and still love them as yourself

.

Someone is... or someone's actions are... big distinction.

I believe drug abuse and drunkenness are abominations, that doesn't mean I think the person is, nor does it prevent me from loving them. I believe homosexual sexual activity is an abomination. That doesn't mean I think the person is, nor does it prevent me from loving them. I'll go so far as to say I believe child sexual abuse is an abomination, but that shouldn't prevent me from loving that person. Loving them may not mean allowing them to run free in the streets - there are other people to consider as well - but it does mean I treat the person with dignity.