Love That iPod? See What Happens Behind The Scenes...

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:31 pm

Do you not recall what happened at Tianamen (spelling???) Square????? Protest, even a little bit and you get run over by a tank.

Dude, he wasn't run over by a tank; he was executed later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_man

don't know that the solution is as simple as our military ousting every P.O.S. tinhorn dictator like we did with Hussein, and even if it is, you peacenicks protest against that.

If Bush had said he was going to remove Hussein because of his policies on his own people, I think America would still support this war. But Bush didn't, he steamrolled this nation into a war on terror, not a war on human rights.

I didn't like Clinton's handling of Somolia either. If you really want to get American's behind your war, IMHO; prove you are actually liberating someone.

However when the people do not want you there as their liberator; it's only a matter of time before the military and civilian population disagree with the war.

Enjoy your fairy tale "leave us the fxxx alone and we'll leave you the fxxx alone" world though. Some people just shouldn't be left the fxxx alone.

Yeah but who's to say the person dealing with them isn't making things worse?

bwohlgemuth · Post by **bwohlgemuth** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:39 pm

You may criticize my lack of compassion for the likes of that P.O.S. Al Zarqawi, but where is yours? "Let them rise up on their own"...

Every time I hear that argument (we did it, why can't they?), I think of this....

Yes, there have been successful revolutions, but the success rate is less than 50% overall. And with a well armed machine like China, that isn't going to happen. And nothing will change as long as we keep funding the central party with our insatiable desire for cheap knock-off crap.

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:42 pm

sharkmansix wrote:If Bush had said he was going to remove Hussein because of his policies on his own people, I think America would still support this war. But Bush didn't, he steamrolled this nation into a war on terror, not a war on human rights.

I didn't like Clinton's handling of Somolia either. If you really want to get American's behind your war, IMHO; prove you are actually liberating someone.

Ditto.

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:55 pm

bassjones wrote: You may criticize my lack of compassion for the likes of that P.O.S. Al Zarqawi, but where is yours? "Let them rise up on their own"... Easy for you to say, when you can compare your President to Hitler on internet message boards without having to worry about the SS knocking down your door, dragging you to Auschwitz, starving you for 3 years, and then finally putting you out of your misery in a gas chamber while your wife and kids watch in horror. Enjoy your fairy tale "leave us the fxxx alone and we'll leave you the fxxx alone" world though. Some people just shouldn't be left the fxxx alone.

I have plenty of compassion for these people, but sh*t, do you expect some mythical "Freedom Force" to sweep across that continent with out any help from its citizens? They have to want to change it, to actually change it. That means they have to somewhat rise up for others to take notice and help out. From what I hear, China is enjoying their gradual move into the world's number one super power. Soon enough, you'll see a change in the world market.

Nice right winger move of invoking something sad and tragic to make me look unpatriotic or uncaring, at least you didn't use 9/11 as an example. No, if a great Evil like Hitler were to rise up and start messin' with other countries I'd sign-up, that's a just cause.

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:14 pm

DELETED

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:31 pm

Arkface wrote:Speaking of, do you oppose the war? Do you oppose the death that occurs via AMERICAN (all encompassing) occupation/policy? And what are you doing to stop it?

I oppose the way we were led into war. A pack of lies!

I deep down oppose any warring, but I cannot stop that on my own, no one can.

I have been to many a protest to bring our troops home. I have donated money to a few causes and charities, that I won't name cause its my business.

I have written my Congressman a few times, though I doubt he reads much of his mail.

I voted for candidates that promised me a change.

Thats most of what I've done, I'm not bragging, I'm just answering your question.

Boycotting some product? Boy that's really gettin' your hands bloody, isn't it?
i'd like to think there are more options than just boycotting and appealing pathos to get people to care about people and do more than they already do. i dont know the fix it, but i'm not blaming the victim.

I'm not laying blame on anyone. I'm offering different ideas on the situation than, "Oh, those poor people." I have compassion for them, I do, but there has to be some level of willingness within the citizens to want the change to happen. I don't know how to fix it either. I think its a tremendously difficult topic to tip-toe around, because if you say anything a little bit too far one way, you get chastized for it.

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:40 pm

Arkface wrote: Easy enough, right! The next time a group (such as Jews ala moses era, African Americans ala a few years ago, etc) is oppressed, i will quote you quoting me quoting you letting them know there are options.

"Come and see the violence inherited in the system! Help! Help! I'm being opressed!"

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:45 pm

MtG reference...awesome.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:51 pm

Massage...Bored wrote:
sharkmansix wrote:If Bush had said he was going to remove Hussein because of his policies on his own people, I think America would still support this war. But Bush didn't, he steamrolled this nation into a war on terror, not a war on human rights.

I didn't like Clinton's handling of Somolia either. If you really want to get American's behind your war, IMHO; prove you are actually liberating someone.

Ditto.

While the Terror and WMD argument was certainly made much more forcefully, Bush did openly discuss the oppression of the people there and Hussein's attrocities. He was very clear about it and spent a great deal of time on it in the same SOTU speech as the "Axis of Evil" line.

The worst part of Clinton's handling of Somalia was letting the 5% minority force us out so that the 95% continue to starve to death at the hands of the warlords and ruling elites.

Call me an idealist, but I do believe inside every person is a yearning for freedom. And I believe it is our duty to assist those people in fulfill that yearning - including people enslaved to the welfare system here, even when that's hard.

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:51 pm

I felt it a most necessary move.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:11 pm

While the Terror and WMD argument was certainly made much more forcefully, Bush did openly discuss the oppression of the people there and Hussein's attrocities.

Oh I know. However it wasn't our reason for going that was icing on the cake. The cake made of oil.

he worst part of Clinton's handling of Somalia was letting the 5% minority force us out so that the 95% continue to starve to death at the hands of the warlords and ruling elites.

Agreed.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:56 pm

Not buying the oil argument... We turned control of the oil right back over to the people, almost immediately after Hussein fell. We aren't receiving any oil from Iraq, last I knew. Their oil is going to China, Russia and France. We get most of ours from the Saudis (now, the argument that oil is preventing from pressing them on human rights abuses - that I buy - and sell). I also believe oil is what is preventing China and Russia from signing onto any agreement to put more pressure on the Sudanese government to stop the genocide there.

And anybody that thinks Iraq has anything at all to do with current oil prices is just not paying attention. If you want to blame it on anything it's the rise in China and India's consumption, which while still below us overall is as high as we were 10 years ago. Supply and Demand. Demand is high, Supply is (artificially, for now) low = high prices. If demand would shrink, prices would come down accordingly. Once we go to ethanol, oil will come way down and they still won't be able to sell it.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:03 pm

And anybody that thinks Iraq has anything at all to do with current oil prices is just not paying attention.

With the destruction of the Iraqi oil refining infrastructure I'm not surprised they aren't making any oil. Why else would Haliburton be so intersted in the region?

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:10 pm

Haliburton does a lot of things that have nothing to do with oil. They are a huge corporation. The main division that's in Iraq is their construction division. That's not to say they won't be working out business deals with the Iraqi business people to purchase oil from there, but they aren't currently.

I love how Haliburton gets bashed so much, but by all accounts they are a great company to work for. They treat (and pay) their employees well, they behave ethically and legally. Other than the fact that Richard Cheney once worked there, I don't really see why such venom exists towards them.

Speaking of refining, that's another huge problem. Our most recent refinery was built more than 20 years ago. We have far too limited refinement capacity and that's driving costs up as well. It's also causing more pollution because the new refineries we could be building - if not for environmentalist special interest groups - would be more technologically advanced and therefore contribute less pollution.

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:58 pm

Mama Dragon wrote:It might be the best job some of them will ever have. If I recall, in Japan the workers, even the high-rung ones, don't actually make much money by American standards, but their cost of living is much different than ours, too. Yeah, yeah, apples and oranges, I know.

aka "what it boils down to for me."