An Interesting Perspective

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:55 am

I mean, when you think about it, the same nation that brought over slave labor to get industrialism started, is the same nation that is preventing willing slave labor from working...but not wholesale, because our nation is okay with farming out slave labor overseas...

Nope, slavery was abolished before industrialism. It was also the British and Dutch who brought slaves to America. Slave trade was pretty well abolished shortly after our founding as a nation and the only slaves still kept as slaves were born into it. Even at the founding, slavery was a hot issue - Ben Franklin pretty much gave up any chance at being President because of his staunch opposition to it. We were less than 100 years old as an independant nation when Congress outlawed slavery alltogether and triggered the Civil War.

Why limit it to American history? Palestine anyone? India? Hong Kong? The Roman Empire? I mean, being able to forcefully occupy a place and keep it has pretty much been the standing rule for all of human existence. . .and technically before it. Beasts in the wild do the same thing. They fight over land that is conducive to their survival.

6 days war? A war started by Jordan and Egypt, in which Israel took the West Bank and Gaza strip. Ever wonder why the Palestinians couldn't just go to Jordan???? They kicked them out because they cause trouble everywhere they go.

As to our border, we have every right to protect it, and we have every right to protect OUR culture, OUR language, OUR heritage, by expecting assimilation. Every other immigrant group in history has assimilated, and I think it's insulting to Latinos that we don't expect them to assimilate. We've never had German/English bilingual education, French-English bilingualism, Hebrew/English bilingualism, etc... Why now?????

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am

@bassjones

Okay, my use of industrialism was poor. What my point is, is that it was okay for people to bring over cheap labor against their will (my assumption) but now that cheap labor is willing to work, we decide that it is infringing our freedoms and we don't want it. To me, that seems pretty crappy, but, its just my opinion.

And I agree, we do have every right to protect our border, but the only real protection is physically doing it. No amount of laws or policies is going to stop a dude from running across the border and getting a job, especially if its easy to do and pretty hard to get caught. Yes, its illegal, but without enforcing laws in a way that actually deter people from breaking them, its not really worth the paper its written on.

Why now you ask? Well, while I don't have any answers, the fact is, latinos are not assimilating into our culture...regardless of what every other immigrant group has done, the simple fact is that its not happening now and just making more laws and policies is not going to change that...it just is...I don't think you are going to be able to tell the latino community that all the other immigrant groups learned to speak English, so you should too. They can obviously get along just fine as is and no one is really doing anything to make it difficult for them...

So, while I agre we have every right to protect the culture, the language and the heritage...our choice of means is obviously not working...

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:34 am

a big part of that is we've allowed it to happen. we now have candidates for President (starting w/ W.) giving campaign speeches in Spanish. Makes no sense to me when you have to be a citizen to vote, and part of passing a citizenship exam is an English test...

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:40 am

I understand your point and actually agree with it...

It doesn't make any sense to me why we are treating the spanish-speaking community differently...it is ridiculous...but, my point is, that laws and policies mean nothing unless they are enforced...and when the president is giving speeches in spanish, isn't it very clear we are sending mixed messages from the top?

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:07 pm

The fact is, these "new" immigrants are different in respect to culture. Latinos, in my opinion, tend to be more aware of their backgrounds and hold onto it more aggressively than European immigrants in the past. Spanish is about the 2nd or 3rd most spoken language in the world, and as an important language it is naturally clashing with English. It just wasn't the same for the Germans or the Irish.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 pm

Well, it's the third largest native language, but English destroys it in the total spoken category and English is only 10 million native speakers behind Spanish. Oddly enough, the two countries with the highest populations in the world come in first and second: China (Mandarin Chinese) and India (Hindi). People in France, China, Japan, Spain, and a whole host of other countries who want to do business with the United States are learning our language for that purpose, but people who want to LIVE here can't do the same? It's bull and it's utterly disrespectful.

By the way, the official language of Ireland: English. Of course they didn't have that problem, they already spoke the language.

German: number 10 in the top native spoken languages of the world. I'd say that would put it in the field of competition, but you don't see German immigrants demanding bilingual signs and documents and blah de friggen blah.

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:04 pm

So, I was not aware that illegal immigrants or spanish-speakers of any sort have been "demanding" any special treatment...I think it is our overly PC society that is at the forefront of catering to about everyone...they are, in a way, giving our country's culture away...

I for one, have never heard a non-English speaker complain that signs weren't bilingual or they couldn't read a job application...

Jambrea · Post by **Jambrea** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:09 pm

deek wrote:I for one, have never heard a non-English speaker complain that signs weren't bilingual or they couldn't read a job application...

There are sites on the web dedicated to making America bilingual. I know this because Anthony's mom sends me sites all the time.

It is more than just the language. It is also the need to soak up our welfare. If you are interested in reading up on some of it I'm sure I can find sites, or Jane can. It is a bigger problem where she is at. Right now we don't see it as much in Fort Wayne.

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:15 pm

Nah...I don't have much interest in reading up...but I am pretty sure that the people behind those sites are not the illegal immigrants everyone mostly complains about...some sort of activist group...but that is just my opinion...

Personally, I enjoy other cultures, as well as my own, and if this ends up being something that allows me to pursue learning another language, I am actually happy about it...I'm not in fear of losing my house, or my job or my identity, so personally, I don't have a problem...and why shouldn't America be bilingual...I mean, other countries have adopted language in order to "compete"...wouldn't we compete better in our own country if we had less of a communication barrior? Why not just make Mexico part of the US?

Jambrea · Post by **Jambrea** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:19 pm

You are probably right about it being activist. I don't have a problem being bilingual either. I just think if you are coming to America to live you should make an effort to speak the language. I also think that the illegal immigrants need to become legal or leave. There are too many people coming to our country and going through the proper channels for illegal immigrants to sneak through. If I was and immigrant going through (or went through) all the red tape, I would be VERY upset.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:22 pm

Garr wrote:By the way, the official language of Ireland: English. Of course they didn't have that problem, they already spoke the language.

Actually, Irish and English are both official languages, although you're right that English is predominant. The Irish are scrambling to increase the number of fluent speakers and recover from a forced English influence.

I don't see bilingualism as a bad thing. Holding on fiercely to the English language and forcing English culture on every immigrant that comes here is, in a way, nationalism because of the fact that we are not English. America is unique compared to the Old World in that it is comprised of many different cultures, so it seems silly to make them adapt to "our culture" - something that has a different definition to every person here.

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:36 pm

bassjones wrote:a big part of that is we've allowed it to happen. we now have candidates for President (starting w/ W.) giving campaign speeches in Spanish. Makes sense to me when he's about as prone to make mistakes in either language.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:11 pm

If I was and immigrant going through (or went through) all the red tape, I would be VERY upset.

I know a number through my church and yes they get very irritated with illegals - especially when they are presumed to be illegal - and with new immigrants who make no attempt at assimilation, especially learning English.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:00 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language

Irish still exists as a cultural throwback, not as a prominent language. Less than 10% have a daily use of the language.

deek · Post by **deek** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:11 pm

Jambrea wrote:You are probably right about it being activist. I don't have a problem being bilingual either. I just think if you are coming to America to live you should make an effort to speak the language. I also think that the illegal immigrants need to become legal or leave. There are too many people coming to our country and going through the proper channels for illegal immigrants to sneak through. If I was and immigrant going through (or went through) all the red tape, I would be VERY upset.

I agree, I would be upset if I was getting a bad rap as well.

I guess where I really set my view is that if someone can come here illegally, and the don't complain, and feeding off the bottom rung in our society is 100 times better than what they could do in their own country...I don't know, I can't get too upset.

My wife made a good point to me the other day about this, that if these illegals actually had to pay taxes and whatnot, they wouldn't be such a drain on our society. I guess I am partially thinking of why can't there be a legal avenue for these people to work and live, without being a citizen...making it just as easy for them to do that, as it would to get a hold of a fake SSN...

I don't know...I am fine with things as they are now, but if there was some middle ground for illegals to pay taxes and be accounted for...but I am sure that this off the cuff thought has plenty of holes in it:)