Anarchy good or bad

[jojo the circus monkey]

JOJO'S WORD FOR THE DAY AND EVERY OTHER DAY FOR THAT MATTER: A N T H R O P O L O G Y ! ! ! !

yes.

Jojo are you an anthropologist?

no.

Do you have a degree in anthro?

no.

Are you studying anthro?

not academically. but yes i read anthropological-ish sh*t.

Because you tend to throw that word around in LOTS of posts.

yes. because people run their G-d #$%# mouths about supposed truths (cliches). how can people know about humanity if all they know about is civilized cultures? anthropology is the O.G. social science.

But seriously, what's the connection between anthropology and political science?

hahahaha are you serious? you dont see how politics rises FROM the structure of a culture? i'll be bold and say that our politics stem from our state structure.

read Peter Farb's "Man's Rise to Civilization". you can get it from the library (when i return it).

Thank you realultimatepower.net

8=========D

BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT SOME CRIMINALS (SPECIFICALLY RAPISTS, SERIAL KILLERS, ARSONISTS, ETC) MAY VERY WELL SEE THE WORLD AS JUST A GAME. THEY WANT TO SEE HOW MUCH THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH.

at least that's how they are in the movies.

i think people usually have motivations for killing and all the hardcore felonies (for the forking record, i think that white collared crimes are more heinous than murder). i think those motivations stem from a lot of messed up symptoms of civilization. viva la resistance!

AND JUST LIKE JOJO SAID, PEOPLE AREN'T GONNA BE LIKE "NO GOVERNMENT? LET'S GO KILL SOMEONE...FOR FREE!!!!!!"

yeah that's some forking REEEEEEEEETAAAAAAAAAAAAARDED logic. i hear SOOOOO many so-called intellectuals regurgitating sh*t like that. this teacher i have, who is rill sharp 'n sh*t, said "people commit atrocities... because they can." that reminds me of some straightup hillbilly girl.

jojo: why are you trying to start a fight with that other girl?
hillbilly girl: because i can!
jojo: oh you outta control! you must run wit gangs!

nothing near the population densities we have these days.

haha no sh*t! our population has never been this high in the history of Ever!

But the pacific northwest had a much higher population density than most others native american regions. lots of resources- they lived off the salmon.

i'd say the aztecs had the highest. G-d #$%# they died fast.

[scuzzbagcomics]

i think that white collared crimes are more heinous than murder

no way man. u ever see office space? those guys stole tons of money and their bosses were jerks.

this teacher i have, who is rill sharp 'n shite, said "people commit atrocities... because they can."

yeah thats way to general. tell teach to dig a little deeper. people commit atttocities because of ignorance.

jojo: why are you trying to start a fight with that other girl?
hillbilly girl: because i can!
jojo: oh you outta control! you must run wit gangs!

was that at a concert?

i'd say the aztecs had the highest. G-d #$%# they died fast.

they were agricultural, were masters of irrigation, had aquaducts running all through tenochtitlan and had many scientific advancements. where do you draw the line for the state?

[sharkmansix]

Everyone sugar coats the possibility of violence.

Without a police force in place, what's to stop me from commiting crimes. With, with anarchy there are no crimes.....so I could just walk over to the people who have things and take them. What's to stop me?

I'm not talking about random mindless violence. I'm talking about the time when the products (food and water) we have are running out, people will revert out of a "civilized" state and return to a more "primal" state.

When a human starts to starve out, people lose higher cognitave functions, and begin to think in a more primal way. They don't worry about right or wrong, but rather eat or die.

---

After you read JoJo's book, watch Mad MAx beyond Thunderdome.

[=^-..-^=]

Oh boy, I think we've done this thread before.


For a state of Anarchy to work to everyone's benefit, we have to make an assumption about human nature, and that is that people are inherently good in their hearts. Any evil they commit comes almost entirely from environmental corruption and poor training. If such is the case, people can be UN-trained from commiting evil acts –evil being defined here as anything that harms others and the community to the betterment of one's self solely.

So, Anarchists would say that without any outside coercion from a state, tribal, or even parental authority, people would automatically work and strive to everyone else's benefit. This assumes that people are incredibly moral and unselfish in their behavior - moral defined here as acting ONLY to the benefit of the community.

When I used to discuss this in class, I would leave a dollar bill out in a prominent place, then see if it was there when I asked for it. About half the time it was gone, and about half the time someone would say they found it and was wondering whose it was.

Personally, I don't beleieve the above assumption about human behavior. I believe we are born inherently selfish, and any unselfishness or sense of community has to be trained INTO us. Who is more selfish and un-community-minded than a screaming baby? I have met too many parasites and bottom-feeders in this life who would gladly lounge around and sponge off the community-minded to assume that Anarchy could work.

So, tomorrow, all government is dissolved. The party starts, as the bottom-feeders have their heyday - raping and pillaging. Some neighbors band together for their mutual protection and build a walled compound. Now, they have to work in different assigned shifts to guard the walls. Others who aren't suited to guarding are given other tasks, like cooking meals for those guarding the walls. Most gladly do these assigned tasks for a while, then start to slack off here and there. Everyone decides for their own survival that some form of coercion is needed to keep people at their tasks. Don't work, don't eat - or spend time in a punishment pen.

Uh-oh, you are assigning tasks, collecting taxes, and using punishment for the common good - you've set up another government!

[scuzzbagcomics]

sharkman said

Without a police force in place, what's to stop me from commiting crimes.

With a police force in place, who's to stop them from committing crimes?

I'm talking about the time when the products (food and water) we have are running out, people will revert out of a "civilized" state and return to a more "primal" state.

Very true. But anarchists are the ones who know this and will prepare. We'd be the ones to dig tunnels under our houses and stock up on tons of ramen noodles and bubba cola. It'd be all the out of work accountants and bankers up on the surface reverting to cannabilism. The unprepared are destined to regret their complacency while the prepared laugh, dine, make love, and rock out 40 feet below the surface!

When a human starts to starve out, people lose higher cognitave functions, and begin to think in a more primal way. They don't worry about right or wrong, but rather eat or die.

The ignorant get hungry and the reasonable get eaten. But the paranoid are safe from them.

=^-..-^= said

I believe we are born inherently selfish, and any unselfishness or sense of community has to be trained INTO us.

Not everyone should be stereotyped like that. Some children are naturally honest, respectful, and just all around good-natured. But yes, when humans first come to earth they are at the height of their ignorance. All that matters is theirself. Life by life they become more sensative- to right and wrong. But training is good for all, everyone should submit to development. It should be mandatory. Some day spiritual development will be state-endorsed. The state will offer training to prepare people to enter into heaven, as we learn more and more about it. getting off point here- anarchy- reincarnation- heaven. Uh... it all comes back around in my mind.

The party starts, as the bottom-feeders have their heyday - raping and pillaging. Some neighbors band together for their mutual protection and build a walled compound. Now, they have to work in different assigned shifts to guard the walls. Others who aren't suited to guarding are given other tasks, like cooking meals for those guarding the walls. Most gladly do these assigned tasks for a while, then start to slack off here and there. Everyone decides for their own survival that some form of coercion is needed to keep people at their tasks. Don't work, don't eat - or spend time in a punishment pen.

Very true. Efficiency is vital in periods of intense pressure. It's a matter of survival. But I don't like that scenario. I dont want to think about it because if I hadn't dug secret tunnels to hide in, i would be the first one to die, no matter what. So I stand to learn nothing from this end of times talk. rather, i am more interested in intentional communities. A group of anarchists who share beliefs about participatory democracy, autonomy, environmentalism, egalitarianism, cooperation, spirituality, etc. People who respect each other and WANT to help others and be helped. People who dislike the way American society works and who want a real community where life is BETTER. This is the society I believe in and this is the society I want to be a part of; where everyone is free.

[sharkmansix]

Very true. But anarchists are the ones who know this and will prepare. We'd be the ones to dig tunnels under our houses and stock up on tons of ramen noodles and bubba cola. It'd be all the out of work accountants and bankers up on the surface reverting to cannabilism. The unprepared are destined to regret their complacency while the prepared laugh, dine, make love, and rock out 40 feet below the surface!

Funny sh*t. I can't believe I took you seriously. My mistake.

[braintrain01]

sharkman what are you talking about whay would you ever take scuzzbag seriously.

[scuzzbagcomics]

sharkman said

Funny shite. I can't believe I took you seriously. My mistake.

its funny but im so serious. digging tunnels is awesome except for the whole caving in/buried alive/asphixiation thing. i should know sharkman, i was buried alive in my past life. true story. i breathed coal. But Indianarchy is no joke, and don't think that for a second. We are gonna rock out hardcore at the IPFW battle of the bands April 22nd. Be there and be prepared to be ROCKED!!!

[sharkmansix]

I just think it's funny you plan to live on Bubbly cola and Ramen. Talk about malnutrition.

[scuzzbagcomics]

Hey I know its Bubbly and fizzy too but its called Bubba. i should know because I ran over a case of it saturday when i was driving through rochester. as for ramen noodles, i'm just cheap. but i like bubba cola. its delish. I'd have other stuff too though. Like those huge bags of generic cereal they sell at walmart. i'd have some colossal crunch berries, marshmallow mateys and such. and those cereals are infused with vitamins, so boo-yah!

[sharkmansix]

Anarchy = no supermarkets

ergo no huge cheap cereal.

[scuzzbagcomics]

Well, uh...duh!! Remember when I was talking about the paranoid being prepared???? What do you think there would still be bubba?? Hecks no! We're gonna buy all that generic crap before civilization falls. I'll have so much generic cereal its not even funny. but i'd be tight on space in my tunnels so I'd proly want concentrates of most my foodstuffs. we'd mix dehydrated food with water. but where would we get water? we'd fill up a bunch of empty bottles. but we'd proly have to learn to sterilize our own urine. mmm... My comrades would be like "hey this bubba cola tastes good" and I'd be like "that's not bubba that's piss water!" and then we'd be like HAHAHRARA!! HAhahARarRA! HAhHahhArar! HahahR!!!

Good times. Down in my hole. HAHHAhaAR!

[Bjart Sod]

God, so much to respond to, so much to ignore. I don't think I even want to debate against the libertarian anarchist sh*t, so...

I believe we are born inherently selfish, and any unselfishness or sense of community has to be trained INTO us.

While I certainly don't think that we're 100% selfish - or 100% altruistic - from the start (though I also wouldn't deny that we do have a fair degree of biologically acceptable selfishness), human beings almost always work together with very few exceptions. It's as much a characteristic of our species (and immediate relatives) as long necks are to giraffes. Our ancestors were working together before they became the species we are today, just like some of our primate cousins.

None of this has anything to do with government or nation/states. You don't have to have a ruling class to work together. You don't need a legal system to divide labour. You don't need a constituion to create culture. Human beings do these things naturally. It's the way we evoled to function.

IMHO Anarchism is just a stop on the way to Totalitarian-Town.

That all depends on the culture the anarchists create. Sure, its easy to imagine the Mad Max scenario, but that's not really an adaptive culture. It couldn't last.

[sharkmansix]

That all depends on the culture the anarchists create. Sure, its easy to imagine the Mad Max scenario, but that's not really an adaptive culture. It couldn't last.

IMO, nothing will last. Our society will go away one day too.

---

I have trouble seeing how a society based on anarchy would / could survive. People would revert back to their instincts, doing only what they need to survive.

What happens to science? No one (us or the government) is going to fit the bill for research. Why bother about advancing thought when you need to focus on gathering food?

---

When Humungus comes knocking on your door, don't say I didn't warn you.

[jojo the circus monkey]

Everyone sugar coats the possibility of violence.

Without a police force in place, what's to stop me from commiting crimes.

to rip off deadly frog:

there are no rules/laws. not now, not ever. police force or not, crimes happen. what stops you from commiting crimes? it's not the cops. what stops you from, literally, shooting yourself in the foot? THE COPS! naw brah. i'm trying to educe here.

With, with anarchy there are no crimes.....so I could just walk over to the people who have things and take them. What's to stop me?

you're taking an incredibly stubborn and dense argument. a gazillion other people are asking the same thing. can't you answer it yourself? if not, read "man's rise to civilization" by peter farb; or "ishmael" or "story of b" both by daniel quinn; or "on personal power" by carl rogers

I'm talking about the time when the products (food and water) we have are running out, people will revert out of a "civilized" state and return to a more "primal" state.

a-hahahaha.

WE DO THAT NOW. CIVILIZATION HAS DONE THAT FOR 10,000 YEARS.

iraq. america. australia. etc.

by the way, because you obvoiusly HAVE NOT read jojo's book, i'll let you know: without food there is no forking hierarchy. there is no police force. there is no state. i repeat: without food, there is no civilization. if people are starving and they need to be policed, chances are good it's an oppressive situation with the raw end with the starving. that means someone can feed a hierarchy and oppress starving people.

permaculture dammit.

After you read JoJo's book, watch Mad MAx beyond Thunderdome.

yes. because mad max is based on extended studies of philosophy, sociology, psychology, and anthropology. oh wait.

Personally, I don't beleieve the above assumption about human behavior. I believe we are born inherently selfish, and any unselfishness or sense of community has to be trained INTO us.

DUH!

you should really understand the argument before you make assumptions and straw man your victory. several (holy hell that's a conservative context) cultures built generosity into selfishness. read "man's rise to civilization".

Uh-oh, you are assigning tasks, collecting taxes, and using punishment for the common good - you've set up another government!

you've reduced the "anarchist" argument to a charicature. please be assured: you are not right. yes. when civilization comes down, it wont be penguins and guns n roses cd's. it's going to be people starving to death, war, atrocities, etc. after that, you can bet your ass that part is over. assuming of course that the land base can't support food production at the rate required for hierarchies.



if any of you guys want to roll with reality and ask these questions, which are the most important questions ever asked, ask Derrick Jensen in Kalamazoo on Tuesday. www.derrickjensen.org