Anarchy good or bad

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is anarchy good or bad

good........
7
44%
bad........
6
38%
me not know...........
3
19%
 
Total votes: 16

sharkmansix
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Post by sharkmansix »

JoJo, I love you to pieces, but you need to find some more books to reference. I said watch MM:BTD bacause you always reference those books.
there are no rules/laws. not now, not ever. police force or not, crimes happen. what stops you from commiting crimes? it's not the cops. what stops you from, literally, shooting yourself in the foot? THE COPS! naw brah. i'm trying to educe here.
Why don't you take what you want? What stops you?

I know the police and laws were generated by us, but you can't say they don't influence behavior.
by the way, because you obvoiusly HAVE NOT read jojo's book, i'll let you know: without food there is no f*#king hierarchy. there is no police force. there is no state. i repeat: without food, there is no civilization. if people are starving and they need to be policed, chances are good it's an oppressive situation with the raw end with the starving. that means someone can feed a hierarchy and oppress starving people.
Just because you tell me to, doesn't mean I'm going to read it.

I completly agree. However, once a group does gain food (or at least access to a reliable source) and everyone else is starving, you've started the wheels back to some sort of state.
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Post by Bjart Sod »

sharkmansix wrote:I have trouble seeing how a society based on anarchy would / could survive. People would revert back to their instincts, doing only what they need to survive.
You're missing the point that humans, by pure biological instinct or not, are driven to be part of things bigger than themselves. It's one of the things we need to do to survive. We are social animals. Human instinct isn't to horde food and kill anyone trying to get at it. Human beings "in the wild" don't do that. It isn't adaptive.
What happens to science? No one (us or the government) is going to fit the bill for research. Why bother about advancing thought when you need to focus on gathering food?
Hunter/gatherers actually have more leisure time than we civilized folk do. When no one's making a profit off grapes, you don't have to spend nearly as much work/time trying to "pay" for them. I hate to sound like Jojo, but anthropology really is your friend.
I completly agree. However, once a group does gain food (or at least access to a reliable source) and everyone else is starving, you've started the wheels back to some sort of state
This is the weird part, and no one's really sure how it worked, but states actually lead to hunger, not the other way around. Before the modern world encroached on the land, hunter/gatherers didn't have to deal wth famines (and where they're left alone, they still don't to this day), it's us civilized, permanently settled folk who do.

A word of caution: I'm not suggesting that a society of anarchists has to be hunter/gatherers to work, but there aren't too many other real world examples to draw on that have worked as well. Doesn't mean we can't create some. We're still the only species to have invented the wheel, and with that to our credit, it's crazy to think that we're forever doomed to have a maladaptive culture.

Culture is by nature malleable. Stone isn't.

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sharkmansix
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Post by sharkmansix »

I'm over my head here, but I'm gonna try and keep up:
We are social animals.
So are dogs, bees, and many others.
Human instinct isn't to horde food and kill anyone trying to get at it.
No, but it is to do whatever is neccessary to survive. Killing certainly isn't out of the question.
Hunter/gatherers actually have more leisure time than we civilized folk do.
Hunting takes a lot of time. Once killed the game has to be processed in some sort. Gathering takes a lot of time.

For one individual, it may be a short amount of time, but for any form of a group, the time invested would greatly increase.
Before the modern world encroached on the land, hunter/gatherers didn't have to deal wth famines (and where they're left alone, they still don't to this day), it's us civilized, permanently settled folk who do.
Sure. They could move away from the famine area. Follow the game, crops, etc.
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Post by braintrain01 »

sharkman said
Hunting takes a lot of time. Once killed the game has to be processed in some sort. Gathering takes a lot of time.
How much time do you spend on fwm?

I guarantee that if you put half of the time you spend at fwm on growing and gathering food or hunting you would have enough food to live on


and if Someone was looking for food and I had extra food I would give it to him if he looked like he was willing to kill I would give him half of what ever I had because if you are hungry enough to kill you need food because I can go a day with ought eating if it would save another


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I cant remember where that is from
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sharkmansix
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Post by sharkmansix »

How much time do you spend on fwm?
I dunno. Why don't you track it for me?
I guarantee that if you put half of the time you spend at fwm on growing and gathering food or hunting you would have enough food to live on
Except I live in an age where I have never had to grow or cultivate my own food. I have an idea or how plants grow, but there's more to it then just sunlight and water.


Just becasue I understand the concept (or growing plants), doesn't mean I can successfully apply it.

I understood the concept of how to drive a stick shift for years before I learned how to actually drive one.
And if Someone was looking for food and I had extra food I would give it to him if he looked like he was willing to kill I would give him half of what ever I had because if you are hungry enough to kill you need food because I can go a day with ought eating if it would save another
And there's nothing to stop him from just killing you and taking all of your food.

Then they have all your exra foodstuffs, and you're dead.
jojo the circus monkey

Post by jojo the circus monkey »

sharkmansix wrote:JoJo, I love you to pieces, but you need to find some more books to reference. I said watch MM:BTD bacause you always reference those books.
if you read the books, you wouldn't say that.
Why don't you take what you want? What stops you?
lack of desire to do it.
I know the police and laws were generated by us, but you can't say they don't influence behavior.
i can and i will. I CAN AND I WILL! norms keep us from doing silly things. i should know because when i break norms people want to kill me.
Just because you tell me to, doesn't mean I'm going to read it.
yeah, i realize that about "you people." the story of b is the end all of all literature. that said, it's also the beginning. the paradox.
I completly agree. However, once a group does gain food (or at least access to a reliable source) and everyone else is starving, you've started the wheels back to some sort of state.
i dont think you understand what you're saying. look up "meme" and tell me what it means so it makes more sense to me. that's the type of sh*t that you need to talk about if you want to talk about a state forming again.
sharkmansix
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Post by sharkmansix »

if you read the books, you wouldn't say that.
Yep.
lack of desire to do it.
I'd call it a lack of need, not desire.
norms keep us from doing silly things.
and norms are made by people, so there more then likely a connection
between norms and laws
yeah, i realize that about "you people."
I just like the fact you put you people in quotation marks. I can see you making the gesture in front of your monitor right now!

That, and for someone of your intelligence, "you people" just seems to fall short somehow.

---

On to Memes:

Meme, (comes from Greek root with the meaning of memory and its derivative "mimeme"), is the term given to a unit of information that replicates from brains and inanimate stores of information, such as books and computers, to other brains or stores of information. The term meme was coined in 1976 by Richard Dawkins in his bestselling book, The Selfish Gene. Inanimate sources of information have been termed 'retention systems'.

In more specific terms, a meme is a self-propagating unit of cultural evolution having some resemblance to the gene (the unit of genetics). The difference lies in the replicative potential and minimally required resources to replicate. Memes can represent parts of ideas, languages, elemental particles, tunes, designs, skills, moral and aesthetic values and anything else that is commonly learned and passed on to others as a unit. The study of evolutionary models of information transfer is called memetics.


an example of one:
The smiley is an example of a visual meme. Having seen it one is likely to copy, reproduce, or modify it and then show it to others.

It sounds to me like a meme is a pop cultural item that can endure the test of time.
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Post by scuzzbagcomics »

Lots of people say that it would be violent without a government. But its violent with a government. without government, there wouldn't be any massive wars or genocides. no nuclear bombs, fallout, radiation.
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Post by somethingtragic »

For the first time in years I've actually started to put thought into things going on outside my own life. It's miserable being lazy and apathetic and sitting around going nowhere with my life in Fort Wayne letting the world around me beat me down without fighting back. I think I'm starting to like the idea of Anarchy...

And I can't even believe someone brought up SLC Punk. It's a stupid movie. There are plenty of things you can do to help out and make a difference and make changes WITHOUT joining hands with the government.

If anarchy killed someone, it's because they let it kill them. They were too lazy and ignorant to learn how to take care of themselves. And if they aren't able to take care of themselves, find someone who can help them. We are not as useless and defenseless as we've been lead to believe.

Too many people are allowed to live so ignorantly and comfortably while others are oppressed, starving, and stepped all over.

I think I'm just stating some obvious points anyways.

But there's a lot more that needs to be said in this thread that I wouldn't be able to.

There's way too many misconceptions about anarchy. I'll thank movies like SLC Punk for doing that.

And as for conservative punks.

Ha. ha. ha.
jojo the circus monkey

Post by jojo the circus monkey »

sharkmansix wrote:Yep.
you need to read good books. nothing is more important than "the story of b". if you find a philosophy book that's more important, i will pay you. same goes for political science, anthropology, etc. BUT you can't refer to quinn's other works or jensen and expect to get paid. cuz i dont role that way.
lack of desire to do it.
I'd call it a lack of need, not desire.
uh... and yet if you need something, you desire it. enough of your chicanery. i do sh*t i dont "need" to do all the time. likewise i dont do sh*t i need to do all the time.

just because i wont get caught by the cops doesn't mean i'll do something. that's ridiculous and not surprising that someone in a STATE would say that. please reference: Dostoyevki's Brothers Karamazov's "Grand Inquisitor".
and norms are made by people, so there is more than likely a connection between norms and laws
that's bad logic. norms aren't "made". laws are. yes, there's a connection between laws and norms, BUT, it's not like they're synonymous what-so-ever. in fact i have no clue what you're saying, and at this point, no clue what i'm saying.
That, and for someone of your intelligence, "you people" just seems to fall short somehow.
i read nonstop because i plan to help Life (human animals, fungi, trees, grass, moss, etc). my whole forking life direction is going towards that end. i'm not busting my ass in some sort of masturbatory intellectual pursuit. "you people" are the jerkss who aren't doing sh*t and wont do sh*t until sh*t hits the fan and you really have no choice. bitter? f**k yeah!
It sounds to me like a meme is a pop cultural item that can endure the test of time.
i definitely dont think it's that simple, but i appreciate your info. it definitely helps me get a hold on it. memes are a helluva thing. how do you kill memes? how do you change them?

I think I'm starting to like the idea of Anarchy...
get into green anarchy. i met some of them in cincinnati. plus zerzan writes for the green anarchy (maga)zine. i wish more people could've went to the cincinnati Global 3 Conference. what a bummer that i and ladylove are the only real-keepers.
sharkmansix
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Post by sharkmansix »

Yeah, my definition of meme's was short sided, but I still think it holds some weight. What's interesting about them to me is how they can be almost anything.

For example:
Technology is a major example, such as cars, paperclips etc. Technology clearly demonstrates mutation as well which is essential for memetic (or genetic) progress to be made. There have been many paperclip designs throughout history, for example with varying degrees of longevity, fecundity and copying fidelity (ie. memetic "success"). An often cited example of "technology as meme" is the building of a fire.

Jingles; advertising slogans set to an engaging melody

Earworms; A song that you can't stop humming or thinking. "It's a Small World After All" is commonly used as an example.

Jokes; Or at least jokes that are popularly considered to be funny

Proverbs and aphorisms (e.g., "You can't keep a good man down")

Nursery rhymes; are propagated from parent to child over many generations, sometimes with associated actions and movements.

Children's culture; games, activities, taunts that are typical for different age groups.

Epic poems; used to be important memes for preserving oral history, although they have largely been killed off by writing.

Chain letters; "You must send this message to five other people, or something bad will happen to you."

Religions are complex memes, and religion, including folk religious beliefs, can even spread virally (such as The Prayer of Jabez).

Conspiracy theories

"I am a lucky person. Here are some stories of my luck. If you believe in good luck, you can become lucky like me." (and its obverse: see luck).

Internet phenomena such as Internet slang and Internet humor (like All your base are belong to us)

Medical and safety advice, such as "Don't swim for an hour after eating" or "Steer in the direction of a skid."

Susan Blackmore theorized that a "self" is merely a collection of memetic stories which she calls the selfplex.

The concept of memes is itself a meme. Even the idea that the concepts of memes is itself a meme has become a widely spread meme. However, the idea that the idea that the concepts of memes is itself a meme, is not yet particularly common as a meme.

Movies are very memetic given their mass replication, causing people to imitate a huge number of things they observe in them such repeating catch phrases such as "You can't handle the truth" from A Few Good Men or "Alllllllrighty then" from Ace Ventura, even if they have not seen the movies themselves.

Longstanding political memes such as "mob rule" and "republic, not a democracy".

All sorts of group-based biases, from antisemitism and racism to cargo cults.

Programming paradigms, from structured programming, object-oriented programming to extreme programming.

Moore's Law has a particularly interesting form of self-replication. The conviction that "semiconductor complexity doubles every 18 months" became more than a predictive observation but a performance target for an entire industry once it was extensively believed. Manufacturers now strive to make the next generation of semiconductor technology recreate the performance growth of the previous generation and so maintain belief in Moore's Law.

Wikis: the proliferation of the collaborative editing systems following the Wiki example in their multiple incarnations. Wikipedia, Wiktionary, etc.

Concepts like Freedom, Justice, Ownership, Open Source, Egoism or Altruism

Fashions such as clothing styles like blue jeans.
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Post by the irie pirate »

Richard Dawkins is the man. I just read "a Devils Chaplain". It was pretty decent, especially when he gets all pissy about jesus freaks.
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Post by braintrain01 »

the irie pirate said
Richard Dawkins is the man. I just read "a Devils Chaplain". It was pretty decent, especially when he gets all pissy about jesus freaks.
Image Summary
A selection of essays by the highly controversial and provocative biologist. The range of topics he covers is far broader than his usual ambit, and many readers will be surprised by the gentler and more humane side he displays in the obituaries, travel and other more personal pieces included.


Sounds cool
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Post by the irie pirate »

Yeah, there is a letter he wrote to his 10 year old daughter about not believing everything that grown ups tell her. It makes alot of sense. There is another essay where he basically says that religion shouldn't be off limits to criticism, based on the Sept. 11 attack. He says it was reactionary, and probably not something he would usually publish, but I liked it.
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