I think I am the only Conservative on the Board

[Bjart Sod]

but to say that racism is limited to mexicans and muslims is radically ridiculous. and then to say that "black and white" racism is history...? onlydumbwhite people could say that.

I didn't think anyone was saying that. If I can put words in her mouth, Crystal was just showing two specfic groups that conservative people have a tendency to discriminate against. Two examples you can back up with any random newspaper.

As she wrote to Hand of Poo:

So bringing up the KKK doesnt do you any justice. Because that is history, like you said. Today it is about giving the middle east guys the evil eye, complaining about immigration, and complaining about welfare being eaten up by the growing population.

And I'd agree that the KKK's glory days are long gone, even if they still march now and then. So the type of active, vocal, "get yr lynching rope" white vs. black racism that they represent to most of us is history. In otherwords, the straw man fallacy: Even if you can prove that the KKK hasn't lynched anyone in a few years, it doesn't mean that racism itself is dead - or even white vs black racism.

Crystal, correct me if I'm wrong on this...just figured I'd try to bridge the gap between your posts and Jojos, since I think you two are really agreeing deep down inside.

[bassjones]

Sorry, Jojo, but I'm going to have to back Crystal up on this one. There's quite a bit of hatred in this country against latinos. Sure, economics explain why folks would leave Mexico to work in America for low pay and zero benefits and live in substandard housing, but it doesn't explain why there have been so many attempts to force English Only legislation.

Sorry Bjart, but that's one of those areas where I think liberal (Sorry, I know I overuse that label) policies are more dangerous and ultimately racist than the conservative policy.

A - If you want to be employed in anything other than the service industry, you must speak English and speak it well. Even in other nations, business leaders speak English well and their children go to school to learn English. Like it or not, it's a fact of life. If you wish to make a decent living almost anywhere in the world, you must be able to communicate with an English speaking person. That is especially true here.
B - Every other immigrant group learns to speak English upon coming here for that very reason. Many immigrants from the Pacific Orient forbid their native tongue being used in the house.
C - Communication is an important element of community and culture. While I (and most of the Conservatives I know) welcome immigrants, it is vital for them to integrate into our culture. I know many of you don't think of the U.S. as actually having culture, but we do, and the English language is a big part of that. Were I to go live in another nation, I would be expected to learn to speak the native language and assimilate into the culture. Why should the U.S. be any different.
D - If you check the Constitution, English is our official language. You must pass an English test as part of the Citizenship exam.
E - I'm opposed to English only legislation, but I'm also opposed to bi-lingual education in American classrooms. English should be taught to children who have immigrated here, but we have enough problems in our education system, and don't need to spend time teaching elementary school children Spanish.\

Onto this:

Quote:
John F. Kennedy's administration (his brother, Bobby was his Attorney General) bugged Dr. King's offices, and was responsible for labeling him a Communist


I could very well be wrong, but wasn't it mostly the FBI who did this?

The Attorney General oversees the FBI. Regardless, it gets tiring being accused of racism because of my political and economic viewpoints. I know many minorities who hold the same positions I do on taxes, welfare, abortion, ghey marriage (including many homosexuals), etc... I spend vast quantities of time in community groups dedicated to developing trust and understanding between racial groups, and many of my closest, dearest friends are of a race other than my own (and yes, I know that's a horrible cliche, but in my case it happens to be true). And yet, Jesse Jackson would call me a racist because I don't believe race quotas are a good idea, and I believe welfare recipients should be pushed to work and become self-sufficient.

[Bjart Sod]

Well, I can sum up my thoughts by linking to the Linguistic Society of America, perhaps a benefit of being a dues paying member. Specifically:

All evidence suggests that recent immigrants are overwhelmingly aware of the social and economic advantages of becoming proficient in English, and require no additional compulsion to learn the language.

It is to the economic and cultural advantage of the nation as a whole that its citizens should be proficient in more than one language

And I'd also like to point out that bilingual education is not a program designed to teach Spanish speakers Spanish. Bilingual programs just assume that we shouldn't hold Latino students back because they can't yet respond with the same fluency as their native English speaking peers. Which I think is a fair ideal, even if those programs are still young and full of kinks. Hell, our entire grade level based education system is full of kinks, but don't get me started.

I know many minorities who hold the same positions I do on taxes, welfare, abortion, ghey marriage (including many homosexuals), etc...

Which is exactly why I don't like to use race or racism. There's so much more involved than the continuum of skin colors, especially when you consider that there's no objective way to divide one race from another. Looking at only race is like looking at the world as only Christians and Moslems: if you don't take into account Shi'a/Sunni politics, you'll never have an accurate picture of what's going on.[/quote]

[The Hand of Poo]

Which is exactly why I don't like to use race or racism. There's so much more involved than the continuum of skin colors, especially when you consider that there's no objective way to divide one race from another. Looking at only race is like looking at the world as only Christians and Moslems: if you don't take into account Shi'a/Sunni politics, you'll never have an accurate picture of what's going on.

That's a hell of a way to put that, and if I could thieve words in place of art, those would be my Mona Lisa.

That's what I wish I would've been sober enough to express a few nights ago. (I was wathcing the debate, which is a an 8 drink minimum if you loathe modern politics, like myself.)

That last phrase especially rings true when you think of people like John Walker Lindh, and when feel contempt or any other emotion towards him, does it really have to do with race?

[sharkmansix]

If you want to be employed in anything other than the service industry, you must speak English and speak it well.

Interesting, I forgot Europe and Asia spoke only english.

Many immigrants from the Pacific Orient forbid their native tongue being used in the house.

I wonder what that does to the psyche of the child? Being told the culture you grew up in is wrong.

I know many of you don't think of the U.S. as actually having culture, but we do, and the English language is a big part of that.

Yes and our dictonary is filled with words from around the globe. Making our culture, a (for lack of a better term) universal culture. We speak Americanized English, not english.

I'm opposed to English only legislation, but I'm also opposed to bi-lingual education in American classrooms. English should be taught to children who have immigrated here, but we have enough problems in our education system, and don't need to spend time teaching elementary school children Spanish.

Yeah, and we don't need Art and Music either. What's wrong with learning something that is not only proven to expand the mind, but is also easier to learn when you are young. That's why every exchange student I've known has spoken more than a few languages.

Becasue they start learning them early in their education process.

[justin maloney]

A good book to read on modern politics is "Whatever happened to Kansas" by Thomas Frank (former editor for the baffler)
In it he talks about how Kansas is considered to be the heart of the heatland where normalcy prevails. Think about how many times you have heard such rhetoric from politicians. Kansas has been a very extremist state throughout the years and now with it's tilt toward Conservativism the same holds true. Now in the book he talks about how not just the Democrats have lost power in Kansas, but also the moderate Republicans. The extreme right wing has infiltrated much of Kansas' government.
The problem the book points out and I agree with is that in todays political climate many middle to lower income families have switched their political voice from voting on the topic of the Economy and what will help to benefit them financialy to voting on Culture topics (Abortion, Gay Rights...) Many of these topics are not able to be decided upon by the executive, or legislative branches of government, (President nominates Supreme court justices but they must be approved by Congress), thus begins the vicious cycle of class debilitation. A person votes for a politician that promises to uphold their constituents values but is never able to deliver upon them, while at the same time large businesses continue to grow and squeeze more work out of these same constituents for lesser wages, and more money out of communities in tax incentives for locating to that city. Which increases the tax burden on the companies workers.

Important notes:
the amount of money earned per year to qualify as the upper 10% of American families. $70,000
Death Tax, formerly known as Estate tax, will only effect 2-3% of all estates. A large portion of this money has been invested pre-tax, although I agree that the 40% taken from these estates seems extreme it is fairly close to the income tax bracket (36-39%) for a yearly income at this level.

[bassjones]

Quote:
If you want to be employed in anything other than the service industry, you must speak English and speak it well.


Interesting, I forgot Europe and Asia spoke only english.

Quote:
Many immigrants from the Pacific Orient forbid their native tongue being used in the house.


I wonder what that does to the psyche of the child? Being told the culture you grew up in is wrong.

Quote:
I know many of you don't think of the U.S. as actually having culture, but we do, and the English language is a big part of that.


Yes and our dictonary is filled with words from around the globe. Making our culture, a (for lack of a better term) universal culture. We speak Americanized English, not english.

Quote:
I'm opposed to English only legislation, but I'm also opposed to bi-lingual education in American classrooms. English should be taught to children who have immigrated here, but we have enough problems in our education system, and don't need to spend time teaching elementary school children Spanish.


Yeah, and we don't need Art and Music either. What's wrong with learning something that is not only proven to expand the mind, but is also easier to learn when you are young. That's why every exchange student I've known has spoken more than a few languages.

Wow, you completely misinterpreted everything I was saying. I am 100% in favor of music and art education. I am 100% in favor of foreign language classes - especially Latin, which is the basis of almost all modern languages. Yes, Asia and Europe feature several other languages, yet most of the business leaders in the countries on those continents develop a working understanding of the English language so they can compete in this new global marketplace of which, like it or not, we are the leader.

Quote:
Many immigrants from the Pacific Orient forbid their native tongue being used in the house.


I wonder what that does to the psyche of the child? Being told the culture you grew up in is wrong.

It's not telling the child the culture they grew up in is wrong, simply that to compete in this culture you must learn to speak English.

I love the different cultural aspects of this country. One of the reasons I am so pro-American is it's diversity, however one area where diversity can be a detriment is language. For my Guatamalan neighbor and I to understand and appreciate each other, we must be able to communicate. There are over 150 languages and dialects spoken in Fort Wayne alone, which makes it impossible for native Hoosiers to learn all of them. Therefore, to effectively promote community, new immigrants must learn English. That's why I volunteer in and financially support English as a second language programs. Recognizing that it's not easy, but if we expect immigrants to rise out of poverty, we must work to teach them English, and likewise, they must work to learn it.

[sharkmansix]

yet most of the business leaders in the countries on those continents develop a working understanding of the English language so they can compete in this new global marketplace of which, like it or not, we are the leader.

Yes, I agree. However, i'd say it like this: Countries from around the world learn english becasue American's have the money. Not becasue of our culture, or our influence, it's simply becasue of the greenback.

It's not telling the child the culture they grew up in is wrong, simply that to compete in this culture you must learn to speak English

It's not directly saying that, no, but that's the underling theme. At least IMO.

Wow, you completely misinterpreted everything I was saying.

I do apoligize for my misjudgement.

[justin maloney]

BassJones,
In much of your postings I don't get the sense of you being a "conservative". It seems as if many of your view points and ideals fall into line with "liberals". I don't mean to make a judgement without knowing you personally, it just seems as if you label yourself "conservative" due to opposition of abortion, ghey marriage, ...
Let me ask you a few questions:
1. do you believe in the idea of health care being provided for those who cannot afford it? (or at least comprehensive health coverage for minors)
2. do you believe that government should implement safeguards so that an econmic downturn cannot esclate into another Great Depression?
3. do you believe that people have certain inalienable rights that no man can take from us?

It seems from some of your postings that you have opened your home and heart to make life better for others. At one time those were considered "liberal ideals". I still feel that this is the basis for a "liberal" regardless of what the political rhetoric is saying at this time.

[bassjones]

"Compassionate Conservative"

I'm a Conservative, because I don't believe the government should do any of those things. I believe good people of their own free will should do those things. I actually believe parents should have to pay for their child's education. I don't believe in very many government programs, because they don't work very well, and privately funded charities do much better work, with far less money. That goes for feeding the poor, educating the poor, running rehabilitation programs, healthcare for the poor, etc...

The government that provides everything can just as easily take everything away. As government becomes bigger and bigger, that government will invariably become more and more oppressive. "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I don't know a single conservative who "wants to see children starve, poison the air and water, take away old people's medicine, burn down black churches, return to slavery, return to Jim Crowe", etc... Yet those exact words have been used by Al Gore (as V.P.), Bill Clinton, Charlie Rangel, Jesse Jackson and others. That is inexcusable.

[sharkmansix]

I don't believe in very many government programs, because they don't work very well, and privately funded charities do much better work, with far less money. That goes for feeding the poor, educating the poor, running rehabilitation programs, healthcare for the poor, etc...

Not knowing your situation, but knowing mine, I have to say, what about the poor people? When I was a young kid, my family was dirt poor. No shoes, no food, no lights poor. Without some government to lean on, I would probably be dead.

So, I can't say I back this.

The government that provides everything can just as easily take everything away. As government becomes bigger and bigger, that government will invariably become more and more oppressive. "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

This I do agree with. Absolute power will corrupt absolutely. Granted, my family needed the government to a degree, we never fully depended on it. I think that's the break, a wanting to be self-sufficient.

I have a love / hate relationship with America's Ideal of pulling one's self up by their boot straps. Becasue, some people don't have boots...

[justin maloney]

I can agree with you that it would be great for people to do those sort of things on their own. The problem is that these actons had to be taken by the government because people weren't doing them on their own. As far as your list of things that you don't know a conservative that wants to do...Poisoning the air and water is a side of effect of the belief in big business and de-regulation. Any business is going to do what they can to cut costs and increase profit. The problem is when that profit is earned at the cost of others health. I also have to disagree with you on the point of paying for education. I feel that an education should be provided free of charge to everyone. Some people want to talk slavery when in my opinion the greatest harm came not from slavery itself, but from the denial of education. To hold someone back from at least receiving a remedial education could have far worse repurcusions on us as a society than most anything else.
i don't particularly like the idea of creating a large government i just feel that we as a people need to have a watchdog looking out for our benefit sometimes.
In talking about power corrupting...I couldn't agree with you more. I believe in what Thomas jefferson said when he wrote that the government should periodically be overthrown and replaced with a new to keep from becoming ruled by a few. (not an exact quote)

[bassjones]

I believe Thomas Jefferson once said, "The blood of the Tyrant is the fuel of Democracy." Jefferson believed we should have an armed revolution every 20 years.

I also agree that a big part of the reason government ended up doing those things is not enough people did their part.

I'm not saying education shouldn't be provided free to poor people, since education is the single biggest factor in determining economic status. I should clarify, I believe if a parent can't (legitimately can't) afford to pay for their child's education, they should help work to pay for that with community service. A certain number of hours required for each dollar not paid. I know most private schools in this area cost between $4000 (Faith-based schools) and $10,000 (Canterbury's about that, last I checked) per student per year. If you set the budget at $5000 per student, which is lower than Fort Wayne public school's current budget year, and attached a certain number of hours of service to pay each $1000, parents would demonstrate far more concern and interest in their child's education, which would in turn improve their child's performance in school.

I'm not against all environmental regulation, but it needs to be reasonable and balanced. ANWAR is a good example. I think it should be opened up for drilling if certain environmental concerns are addressed.

[jojo the circus monkey]

I believe Thomas Jefferson once said, "The blood of the Tyrant is the fuel of Democracy." Jefferson believed we should have an armed revolution every 20 years.

actually he said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

and he didn't say that about revolutions per se, but he said something to the effect that it'd do us well.

ANWAR is a good example. I think it should be opened up for drilling if certain environmental concerns are addressed.

drill in the preserve? you DO know the purpose of a preserve? what's the purpose if it's just a backburner?

[sharkmansix]

I should clarify, I believe if a parent can't (legitimately can't) afford to pay for their child's education, they should help work to pay for that with community service. A certain number of hours required for each dollar not paid

Community service, like what people on probation do? How messed up is that! Here's how it would go: "You can't afford education for your kids, so for them to learn, you need to pick up trash in the park, and clean up the city. Regulations, you know. Pick up your orange vest at the next window. NEXT!!!" Just becasue they are poor, doesn't mean they don't have jobs or obligations. There is no need to punish them for wanting a good education for their kids.