Garr wrote:I'm pretty darn familiar with pagan religions and I've never come across anything in my reading (over 20 books to date, countless articles, and even more web pages) and I've never found a mention of "The Gates of Hell."
I haven't read 20 books to date, articles and such on this subject, but a simple search pulled up a Bible basic study text stating that gates of Hell was translated from "gates of Gehenna", which was an actual place.
This was located near Jerusalem (Josh. 15:8), and at the time of Christ it was the city rubbish dump. Dead bodies of criminals were thrown onto the fires which were always burning there, so that Gehenna became symbolic of total destruction and rejection.
In his masterly way, the Lord Jesus brought together all these Old Testament ideas in his use of the word 'Gehenna'. He often said that those who were rejected at the judgment seat at His return would go "into Gehenna (i.e."hell"), into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not" (Mark 9:43,44). Gehenna would have conjured up in the Jewish mind the ideas of rejection and destruction of the body, and we have seen that eternal fire is an idiom representing the anger of God against sin, and the eternal destruction of sinners through death.
The reference to "where their worm dieth not", is evidently part of this same idiom for total destruction - it is inconceivable that there could be literal worms which will never die. The fact that Gehenna was the location of previous punishments of the wicked amongst God's people, further shows the aptness of Christ's use of this figure of Gehenna.
I guess a five second search just put me one step ahead of you on the "gates of hell" knowledge ladder:)
Either way, discussion on religion is about as useful as a discussion on politics...and it makes us all look like asshats:)
not if it stays informative rather than accusatory
"brad!
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I did a search on google using "the gates of hell" as criteria, and the first two pages were full of references to the movie and to the sculpture. Even so, the text you quoted makes no reference to pagans, regardless of it's informative value.
I also agree with Bassjones that a discussion of the scholarly, historical, or academic value of religions in an informative voice is always beneficial (and usually entertaining). So far, I haven't seen much that I would consider someone trying to push beliefs on anyone else, but I have seen a lot of good information to serve as a study catalyst.
Back to MC's original question of how a being outside of time can change:
Presuming God doesn't fit with our human concept of time - which seems necessary - doesn't preclude him from all notions of time. I would imagine God has his own notion of time. What seems like years to us - a length of time that allows for considerable change in a human - may seems like seconds to an infinite being.
Imagine it like Bill Gates with money. I've read somewhere (can't remember the source) that with his money he can buy Bentley's the same way an average American buys a pack of gum. What seems like a ton of money to us is inconsequential to him.
That's the way God views time. This allows for a gradual progression in his personality.
I've got more to say on the subject - but must for now return to work.
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MrSpall wrote:Back to MC's original question of how a being outside of time can change:
Presuming God doesn't fit with our human concept of time - which seems necessary - doesn't preclude him from all notions of time. I would imagine God has his own notion of time. What seems like years to us - a length of time that allows for considerable change in a human - may seems like seconds to an infinite being.
with which I agree,....our time on the planet is the equivalent to
the "wink of an eye".
"A thousand years is like a day, and a day like a thousand years..."
"brad!
...your tunes and your playing sound really great... all the best to you and god bless-
adam nitti" www.myspace.com/adamnittimusic
www.bradjonesbass.com
http://groups.myspace.com/northeastindianabassplayers
www.myspace.com/bassjones
www.myspace.com/whitehotnoise
www.esession.com/bradjones - hire me for your session from anywhere in the world.
"A thousand years is like a day, and a day like a thousand years..."
Tell that to the millions suffering around the world in the very real, very present here and now.
It's such bullsh*t. An infinite being would not even experience "time"..."gradual progression in his personlaity"? WTF? So Freud was correct: God really is merely a human projection. Not a whole lot different than the Olympian deities of Antiquity. He shows all the same attributes: rage, jealousy, hate, envy, greed, and blood lust that we humans do. So how is he any better, more evolved, or "holy"?
He/She/It does not exist outside of time or space...He/She/It exists within our MINDS. Just look at the language and imagery we use to talk about Him/She/It. Even language is a cognitive construct.
The best analogy I ever heard that debunks the concept of God as the omnipotent judge of the world is a simple one: If an earthly jusdge were to sentence a petty thief, a child molester, an 80-year old grandma who got a speeding ticket and Hitler to the same number of years behind bars, we as humans would be outraged. We would call for his license to be revoked, etc. Yet God, in His infinite "wisdom" does just that when it comes to "salvation" through Christ. He makes no real judgement calls or deliberations on what might be "fair". Everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus, regardless of their relative ethical or moral fiber gets the same treatment: ETERNAL DEATH.
It's so damn silly. And yet so many still believe.
Well, consider this as well, time, in general, is relative. We measure our time by the rate of rotation and revolution around our star. Who even knows how that relates to other galaxies and/or planets. I mean, who even knows where we fit (in any aspect) in the machine that is.
I read Timeline by Michael Crichton years ago, and one point that always stuck in my mind was his statement on "time". Time was created by us for us. We cannot travel in time, because it's merely a human concept, and it only exists because we make it exist. Time does not progress, we progress, trees progress, rocks progress, other animals progress, all living things progress in age. That is the true measurement of things.
So again, as Garr said, we're lumping something outside of our realm into something that is a creation of our own. An infinite being would have to be. It doesn't make sense for it to change or "progress", because it would have to just be and just is.
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Religion is similar to a concept I recently read in a mathematics article. It was debating the nature of math, whether it is out there to be discovered or is a product of human invention. Religion fits that mold quite succinctly...
