An Interesting Perspective

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:04 am

This comic has me up in arms. I think that illegal immigrants should be prevented from coming here. In the same hand, I realize that the English, Spanish, and French (primarily) took this land by force and practically committed genocide by wiping out entire tribes of natives.

I want to laugh, but I don't.

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:10 am

Keep in mind the idea is to keep Mexicans out of land that used to be theirs and it gets even sillier.

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:11 am

I chuckle in an ironic sort of way...

But this kind of thing has been going on for centuries, I think. One nation takes control of another nations land due to some kind of strength superiority. Then, they don't want that to happen to them, so they "fortify" themselves.

I guess the thing I don't particularly like, is the fact that nowadays, nations try to make laws to prevent this sort of thing from happening, thinking its any less brutal than just protecting the border or forcing them out...thinking that its okay to be "racist" in one regard, but not in another.

I mean, when you think about it, the same nation that brought over slave labor to get industrialism started, is the same nation that is preventing willing slave labor from working...but not wholesale, because our nation is okay with farming out slave labor overseas...

It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...I am all for survival of the fittest and if our country is overrun by immmigrants, then I need to learn how to incorporate myself into that and be successful within it...not try and hide behind a bunch of laws and be bitter...

sevesd93 · Post by **sevesd93** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:12 am

I am pretty sure the Native Americans didn't have an immigration policy set in place when the English, Spanish and French starting coming over.

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:19 am

sevesd93 wrote:I am pretty sure the Native Americans didn't have an immigration policy set in place when the English, Spanish and French starting coming over.

Good point, but the fact of the matter is, a law doesn't mean anything if it can't be enforced. Take a look at our own immigration policy...it looks good on paper but its not really all that effective.

To touch on another thread briefly, that is why I am not all that concerned about the smoking ban, until I start seeing the enforcement aspect...right now, it is just fear...people will either conform or rise up against it...unfortunately, most of us (in the greater sense) are two weak to actually do something about it to force a change...we'd rather just complain about things and cry woe is me...

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:24 am

Sankofa wrote:Keep in mind the idea is to keep Mexicans out of land that used to be theirs and it gets even sillier.

To a point. Texas, New Mexico and California were SOLD to the United states through the negotiations of John Slidell which were promted by Polk in 1845. I mean, yeah, it was their land once, but their government decided to sell it. Can't fault us for that, can you?

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:27 am

sevesd93 wrote:I am pretty sure the Native Americans didn't have an immigration policy set in place when the English, Spanish and French starting coming over.

No, they were happy to share the land with us in many cases. I mean, there were some inherently violent tribes, but the natives didn't really have a concept of ownership when it came to land. Indigenous people seldom have land ownership laws because they all share their resources for the survival of their people.

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:29 am

But what about the other 47 or so states/territories?

Americans stole a lot of things and now we are wanting to protect them...and the only reason we can substantially do that is because we still have physical power on our side...once those tables turn, it will be a different story...

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:41 am

I'm not an expert on American history, but I know that financial arrangements were made for the obtaining of many of the states, but that we had initially encroached on the land. This article has an interesting table about halfway down. It appears that after the 13 colonies established "The United States of America", that many of the states were purchased from their current occupants: France, Spain, Mexico, and Russia that I saw in the list.

Sankofa · Post by **Sankofa** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:50 am

Garr wrote:It appears that after the 13 colonies established "The United States of America", that many of the states were purchased from their current occupants: France, Spain, Mexico, and Russia that I saw in the list.

So we bought fenced goods?

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:52 am

I guess I am still going back to the fundamentals...what allows anyone to go claim a piece of land? Simple...the ability to do so, which back then, was force. Whether it was your land or not, you were standing on it and if you could defend it, it was yours...

I mean, the only reason we can't do that as much nowadays, is because individuals or small groups can't actually defend themselves from government or law enforcement agencies and with the media coverage today and the state of the world's mindset, people just won't let it happen.

So, regardless of financial arrangements, anything claimed and sold was done so by peoples that had it by force...I don't have a problem with that...I mean, if someone could step into my house, kick me out, not have law enforcement do anything about it and set me on the streets, while it would suck ballz, I am all for survival of the fittest...obviously that is not going to happen, so its moot.

But, I think that is exactly what was happening...it seems ridiculous by today's standards, but it obviously was pretty rampant back in early American history...not to mention about anywhere else in the world when nations were able to take control of other people's land!

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:55 am

Sankofa wrote:
Garr wrote:It appears that after the 13 colonies established "The United States of America", that many of the states were purchased from their current occupants: France, Spain, Mexico, and Russia that I saw in the list.
So we bought fenced goods?

But how can you steal something from people who don't believe they own it? That's what I'm talking about. It's so convoluted and confusing to me. we're talking about between 300-400 years ago. That's a long time to us, but it's nothing to the nations who came here from Europe.

::shrug::

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:58 am

deek wrote:But, I think that is exactly what was happening...it seems ridiculous by today's standards, but it obviously was pretty rampant back in early American history...not to mention about anywhere else in the world when nations were able to take control of other people's land!

Why limit it to American history? Palestine anyone? India? Hong Kong? The Roman Empire? I mean, being able to forcefully occupy a place and keep it has pretty much been the standing rule for all of human existence. . .and technically before it. Beasts in the wild do the same thing. They fight over land that is conducive to their survival.

I don't see it as wrong, but I do see it as unenlightened and a bit barbaric.

deek · Post by **deek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:18 am

No argument from me, Garr. I agree, it has gone on forever...basically.

Which is why I have no problem whatsoever if the hispanic population in the US continues to grow and gets more and more control. I think that is perfectly in sync with the way nature works. They just better be able to get equal representation in the government, or we will continue seeing a bunch of stupid laws trying to protect things that really can't be protected.

I just get disenchanted with the fact that the US Government follows double-standards...that it is okay for them to do one thing, but when that same thing starts happening to them, then its a big deal and has to be stopped...

Al Quandt · Post by **Al Quandt** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:22 am

speak American fluently, have a clean criminal record? Come in!

As said above, we are not doing anything outside of nature and our own human history. We are just protecting our land like any other country does.

Americans obtained this land, not Spanish, not English, not French, not Polish. Americans once it became America were became Americans, now once born here you have always been an American regardless of your prior heritage. You are not Polish American, French American, exc.... you are American. This of course has not always been the case in our countries history. America has made some grave mistakes in that area that still haunt us today but the plan and point still exists.

If you want to come to America and be American more power to you, welcome. I am from Polish, German, and Irish decent, but I was born here and I speak America's chosen language so I am nothing more then that. I wont ever go to another country to live unless I speak their language and want to truly be a part of them. Hell I am learning Polish just so that I can visit which I cant say for a lot of the tourists here.