On race...

[bassjones]

I actually agree with you a great deal - on the education system, and violence in the home specifically.

In refering to their culture, I was refering specifically to the poverty stricken black subculture of America's inner cities in which any young person of color (male or female) attempting to become educated is said to be "being white" or betraying their blackness - this is my obervation of many of the young people I have worked with as well as directly reported to me by many of those young people. "The harder I worked in school, the more I was shunned by my own community" is not an uncommon statement, to the point of, "I quit trying and dumbed myself down to please other people". That combined with "the soft racism of low expectations" in which teachers don't expect black children to perform well, so they don't hold them to the same high expectations to which they hold their white students, goes a long way to explain why the literacy rate in the African American community is so low compared to other subculture's literacy rates, often coming from the same schools - in this regard at least, Latino-Americans are also held down to extremely low expectations.

[heaven's chimney]

Literacy seems to be the easiest thing to work on. Well, seems to be. I can't get the Literacy Coalition to return emails - nor the United Way. So if anyone on here reading this is illiterate, let me know and I'll help. Seriously, I dont even know where to begin and my time on this earth is running out.


I think the quality of education would help too. But I dont see "The Fallacy of Gender and its Victims" being a subject in elementary/middle/high school any time soon. We need an alternative to school.

[bassjones]

"I never let my schoolin' get in the way of my education."

Mark Twain

[bwohlgemuth]

Going to hijack this thread for a similar topic....apologies to all.

WTF is wrong with you when it comes to fat people. Seriously. Do you think we have so much fat in our ears we can't hear you @$$holes saying crap behind our backs.

And to the nice person who had their ~five year old son in the car. When you say to your son "well, we'll park as soon as this fat f*ck moves out of the way", don't be surprised if I don't pull out of my parking spot for you. Or if I confront/embarass you about your sh*tty attitude in front of your kids.

I've been fat most of my life, and over the past year and a half I have heard the most vile sh*t come out of people's mouths about me and people I know in the same situation.

OK, return to your normal programming....

[BasSmArt]

I really didn't intend this to turn into a discussion of feminism.

I was addressing your quote below.

Many of these teachers are clueless about black culture and poverty and many have been feministized (militant feminism that views masculinity as bad and attempts to train the masculinity out of males) to the point that they despise these young men more than they care to admit - or worse perhaps, they pity them.

I have never uttered any of the above offensive statements, nor would I tolerate any such statements from friends or acquaintences.

I was giving an extreme example, but I wasn't implicating you.

As to my definition of militant feminism, see the movie PCU... While an obvious farce, that depiction of militant feminism is more what I was refering to.

I don't know how seriously I can take a farce. I wouldn't know what parts to take seriously and what parts not to when it came to evaluating your personal view.

I don't necessarily agree that experiencing the kind of oppression faced by women for thousands of years equates to the sort of oppression faced by African-Americans in the US.

I agree there are differences, but I actually think women have a better idea of what it's like to deal with oppression than men (because women also experience economic and social inequalities, some of which are the same issues...fair pay for equal work, etc ). This is something I think African Americans and women have in common on different fronts. Whereas, a white male has a harder time understanding what it's like to be socially oppressed. White males might understand African male sexuality more than women, but I think women can better relate to the social circumstances...But really, anyone can look at the books and statistics to pick apart the variables that play into social development of any sex or race. Just because you're a man, doesn't mean you have a better actual fact based idea of why races and sexes act in whatever way they act. Also, I think there is a cultural difference in the masculinity of African American males and Caucasian males and being a white male doesn't necessarily mean they view their mom's, motherhood, and fathers and fatherhood in the same light.

The last sentence is better exemplified by heaven's chimney's comment,

( You have to tread lightly on "their culture." Because it's not like there's "one Black culture." If you want a glaring example, check out The Lost Boys of Sudan. )

And I couldn't agree more.

One is very paternalistic, while the other is downright hatred and loathing. And I definitely don't believe experiencing that oppression enables a middle class female to have a clue about black, poverty-stricken culture in the US.

Racism and chauvinism are both forms of hatred and loathing. I think I addressed these comments in my last counter.

Also, I don't mean to imply I know what I'm talking about, just sharing my observations and interpretations. I'm learning as I go, mostly by listening to young, African-American males and hearing their frustrations. Most of what I posted is straight out of their mouths. I'm just trying to learn and help through that learning, rather than trying to give answers.

-Definitely lots to learn from anyone. If you want to solve problems though, I think you have to combine observation with sociology, psychology and economic studies to see what's effective help. Otherwise, the blind are leading the blind. It's really cool you care to involve yourself.

Hopefully I will post some more later.

[BasSmArt]

I think the quality of education would help too.

If we paid our teachers like doctors and our doctors like teachers, people would have more human capital to enable their future.

[diethyl]

If we paid our teachers like doctors and our doctors like teachers, people would have more human capital to enable their future.

If teachers had as much schooling as doctors then perhaps their wages might reflect that. It is a travesty that K-12 teachers are not paid enough, but on the flipside; they're not doing enough.

[heaven's chimney]

human capital sounds like a nazi phrase.


but i dont think it's totally a matter of paying more. the curriculum is terrible. we have to learn to get meth out of the suburbs.

[BasSmArt]

If teachers had as much schooling as doctors then perhaps their wages might reflect that. It is a travesty that K-12 teachers are not paid enough, but on the flipside; they're not doing enough.

Schooling isn't the only form of knowledge worth working for. Field experience can be many more years of knowledge than a degree represents.

My meaning really is that if teachers were paid better, our experts would be in the classroom instead of the field. And if experts are in the classroom, we produce a higher level of expert coming out of college. If teaching was a higher paid field, there would be more competition for the positions and we'd pick the most knowledgable people for the job. Teaching would be something many did after a career in the field so they could pass on more expertise when they made the career jump up the ladder to teaching.

human capital sounds like a nazi phrase.

I just intended it's use to reflect the actual definition.


The pay comparison was meant to be on a relative basis. Teachers should be paid more than doctors because experts need to teach our novices for their to be greater human capital/skills/knowledge passed on to everyone. An unpracticed fresh-out-of-school medical student with little to no experience in the field shouldn't be expected to pass on the needed knowledge to people who are going to work in the field.

Ex. It's like asking a 3rd grader to teach advanced calculus. If you ask the advanced calculus students to bring the 3rd graders up to speed; then a whole class of 3rd graders gets in depth knowledge instead of the kid in advanced calculus getting very little from the 3rd grader who can't comprehend the advanced calculus level.

If we pay our instructors more than what their instructional field makes, we ensure that the top of the ladder in that field is teaching. Then we have the top experts giving the most insight and current skills to students. At the very least, I think this should be employed more on the college level.

But i dont think it's totally a matter of paying more. the curriculum is terrible. we have to learn to get meth out of the suburbs.

I agree.

[diethyl]

Schooling isn't the only form of knowledge worth working for. Field experience can be many more years of knowledge than a degree represents.

Well I think that both you and I are very aware of that fact.

The problem, I think, is that K-12 educators don't receive the education/training/field experience, that is needed to properly educate. Maybe if they had 8 years of schooling then things would be different.

[heaven's chimney]

plus to paraphrase a confidential source held in confidence, experts dont care about teaching. in the academic world there is a hierarchy (in order of decreasing importance): research, grant proposals, teaching. Both of the first two actually get attention. Teaching may or may not get attention. (also confirmed by a non-confidential source: Robert Sternberg in his 101 tips book)


Maybe it's a coincidence that I just read Pedagogy of the Oppressed, but teaching in general has to be reevaluated. We can't rely on the traditional method because it fails a lot. But the education system is about as futile as the political system. It doesn't matter how much money or how many laws we re-write, poor people will always get the shaft. (Until the middle class falls out and relative deprivation motivates them towards revolution and unites them with the poor class.) Did i just hijack this thread? I would say no, because there isn't a natural fear of a black planet. the stem of ALL racism deals with economics.

for a good book on the geneaology of racism and its parent Economics, check out the mighty tome (which i think means "book"), The Culture of Make Believe.

[zenmandan]

Speaking of how f'd up the education system is and staying off of the original topic for a moment longer...My high school chemistry teacher, a veterinary doctor and former chemistry professor at Purdue, was fired from his position after one year of teaching in our high school because the english portion of his teaching credentials was not up to date. He had three seperate doctorates (chemistry, math and veterinary medicine) and was let go because someone decided he didn't have the proper level of English skills?! This is a prime example of how a few educators making the rules for everyone has completely mucked up the system. I also agree that teachers need to be closer to the top of the pay scale. Without teachers, we have no doctors, no musicians, no future teachers.

[heaven's chimney]

after thinking about it, i've decided that we're all better off without teachers. teachers can't be fundamentally separated from the current paradigm (which screws over folks of all colour) and good riddance. they can't teach us to be critical enough and so all they'll do is perpetuate prejudice. pay teachers less.

[zenmandan]

heaven's chimney-
Color...C-O-L-O-R. What are you, British?

I've been teaching for 15 years and have never treated anyone differently for any reason, let alone skin color. The only model I follow when teaching my students is teaching them to love music and be the best that they can at whatever they are doing. I teach my students to become better people through respect (not only their teachers, but themselves), diligent work (in their music as well as their classroom work), and follow through (not giving up when things don't go their way). There are hundreds of former students of mine that are better off because of ideas I helped them to learn and develop, regardless of their race. There are hundreds of students that did better in school because of the work ethic I helped instill in them through their private lessons, regardless of income level. There are hundreds of students of mine that learned to think for themselves, to not blindly follow their peers just to "fit in", regardless of their social status. I teach because I love music and I love passing that knowledge on to others. I am certainly not rich, nor will I ever be, doing what I love. Show me how I am perpetuating prejudice or how I am fundamentally screwing over anyone and I'll gladly take less money. Until you can do that, I feel that I deserve more, as do thousands of other teachers that are many times better than I will ever be. For you to make such a broad statement is absolutely arrogant and unfounded.

[bassjones]

"In a free market society, everyone is paid exactly what they are worth."

This includes teachers. Teachers are paid according to what the people paying them (taxpayers) think they are worth. Doctors are paid according to what the people paying them (hospitals/practices, patients, insurance companies - not necessarily in that order) think they're worth. Athletes and entertainers get paid exactly what the people paying them thinks they are worth.

Also,

I've been teaching for 15 years and have never treated anyone differently for any reason, let alone skin color.

I don't believe you. I fully believe you have tried to do this, but I don't believe you have lived up to your efforts. I don't even know you, but I don't believe anyone can live up to that standard. We all have biases and prejudices based on certain criteria, race being one of them. Those biases and prejudices are certain to affect how we treat people. It may not have been horrible, but I guarantee you have treated people differently based on your own set of biases. It's okay, the first step is acknowledging it

I used to say the same thing about myself, but I realize I had/still have biases regarding race, many that I didn't think were there. We all have them. I don't believe I have any hatred or ill will in my biases, but I certainly have some, many of which I may not even be aware of yet.