On race...

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Re: On race...

Post by bassjones »

heaven's chimney wrote:
bassjones wrote:Given all these obstacles, and many more, is it any wonder that so many are in prison? I think it's a wonder that more of them aren't. Is it any wonder that the hurricane of poverty continues to eat up so many African-Americans in its path?

it sounds like you're blaming female teachers for taking away their masculinity. and yet, by your own accord, a lot of black people go to jail (while I assume less white people go to jail) - if female teachers are teaching all "races," why aren't more people in jail?


i dig your archaeology, but i think this particular post has left out a LOT more of the picture - systematic brutality by the government (last I checked, no KKK members have been government assassinated, and yet Black Panthers have), media portrayal, institutional racism ad infinitum.


as far as black males acting as role models for black males, no doubt. but i think there's a better middleground than Bill Cosby and 50 Cent.


(On a tangent, it sounds like you're blaming women instead of men for men's absence. That's how I take it anyways)

Please spell out P E O P L E
Guy, please quit being so pedantic. It's ridiculous and alienating - not to mention that you are, via self-fulfulling prophecy, detracting from his post.
I'll ignore the periphery and respond to your genuine post. I'm not blaming the female teachers. I'm blaming the entire system. The education system is a symptom of the broader problem. It is a fact that black males are the most likely group to be labeled as "at-risk" or "special needs". Why is this? Are they genetically wired to be more at risk for violent behavior? A teacher or school administrator saying that black males are genetically wired to be more at risk for violent behavior would be immediately cause for disciplinary action or dismissal, yet the school system, run by mostly, supposedly, liberal thinking, mostly women labels them as such at an alarmingly high rate. Why? There are numerous reasons, many of them stemming from a basic lack of understanding of poverty and black culture, and also from a basic appreciation of masculine behavior. A small example - I'm not advocating fighting or violence, but what happens when a male is being harrassed on the playground? He is encouraged to go talk to a counselor and talk about his feelings - a very feminine thing to do (I said feminine, not girly, so don't flip out on me). Is this approach working? I think it's not, at least not very well. I'm not saying he should be taught to strike out against people picking on him, but sometimes a man's got to fight back and stand up for himself (a decidedly masculine approach). Again I'm not talking about violence, just standing up to the bully (a violent defense may be required, but it may not). Yet, if he does this, he gets labeled as a violent child, and "at risk" for violent behavior as an older teen and into adulthood - just for standing up for himself instead of running to the counselor to talk about his feelings. Poppycock! And yet, violence continues and continues to escalate.

Anyway, I didn't really want to get off on that sidetrack... There are many other symptoms that contribute to the disease, mainly associated with the FACT that we as a society do not value young black men (or young black women mostly, but I work with men and focus on them) unless they are entertaining us with their athletic achievements or musical skill. The only time you hear about them is when they are getting into trouble or performing magical feats of athletic prowess in the gymnasium. Their own culture devalues education and their own culture dismisses their contribution to their children's lives, only valuing their sperm and not their input. Their dad walked out, mom (usually out of frustration) has repeatedly said, "we don't need him anyway", now he's got the notion that he's not needed. Anway, I'm tired and I'm going to bed...
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Post by Bjart Sod »

On the recommendation of a member of this forum, I finally read Culture of Fear. There's a nice chapter simply titled "Black Men" that discusses things like how even though black men are more likely to be victims of a crime than other race/gender combinations, they're less likely to make the news when they are.

There's also a chapter about single mothers. All of the problems that commentators were associating with single mothers in the 80s/90s were actually problems of class, which no one wanted to discuss and thus, no one was controlling for. A white boy raised by a middle class single mother is going to be an average middle class white boy. Fathers are not magical cures. A little masculinity in one parent doesn't save a child from a life of poverty.
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Post by bassjones »

There's also a chapter about single mothers. All of the problems that commentators were associating with single mothers in the 80s/90s were actually problems of class, which no one wanted to discuss and thus, no one was controlling for. A white boy raised by a middle class single mother is going to be an average middle class white boy. Fathers are not magical cures. A little masculinity in one parent doesn't save a child from a life of poverty.
Agreed, mostly. A child raised by a single mother is more likely to live in poverty. Too many variables go into that to go into them all, but even raised in poverty a child with both parents is less likely to have the problems associated w/ single mother poverty, and a child raised by a single mother in middle class America will still not fare as well as a middle class child w/ two parents. At least based on the research I've seen.
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Post by QWETTY »

single motehr variable? hows about NO PARENST variable...

i work for these guys who paint the inside of houses. One oft hem has been friends with this guy since they were kids who gre up in an orphanage. This man never knew his family and never had a mother or father. This man now owns the Chicago white sox. lol. variables are some crazy things. My boss just ate dinner with him last week.
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Post by bassjones »

for every guy like that there are a thousand (literally) who grew up in an orphanage and have struggled with every aspect of life.
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Post by QWETTY »

deffinately... and im just now seeing commercials for a website made to help orphanage kids.
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Post by BasSmArt »

Bjart Sod wrote:There's also a chapter about single mothers. All of the problems that commentators were associating with single mothers in the 80s/90s were actually problems of class, which no one wanted to discuss and thus, no one was controlling for. A white boy raised by a middle class single mother is going to be an average middle class white boy. Fathers are not magical cures. A little masculinity in one parent doesn't save a child from a life of poverty.
Agreed. Though, as others have essentially said, I think defining character qualities with our sexuality is becoming increasingly outdated and a matter of individual consideration.

I did read a little bit by Phyllis Chesler about how often young male students will act out in school because they know that typically there is a male figure they'll end up spending one on one time with (the disciplinary officer), especially in elementary school where there are often fewer male role models/teachers.
_______________________

Quincy and I were talking the other day about how minority teachers are often pushed to teach in inner city schools saturated with the majority of minority students. It's really curious how magnet schools emerged busing kids all over town to diversify education, yet with our teachers, we fail to encourage diversification. One would think that by providing diverse role models for children, we'd better encourage an equal social and class respect. And really, I see that as the same problem in elementary schools...the ratio of male to female teachers is much heavier with estrogen influence. There needs to be more diversification.
____________________________
bassjones wrote: militant feminism that views masculinity as bad and attempts to train the masculinity out of males to the point that they despise these young men more than they care to admit - or worse perhaps, they pity them.
I wouldn't say masculinity is bad, but I would say it's vague and ever-changing itself (ex. compare old practicers of chivalry, "gentlemen's club" frequenters, and men who wear make up or are gay, but very masculine in their sexual frequency and urges). Instead of outlining what boys "should be"..."what it is to be masculine" (which inevitably leaves males with feelings of guilt and confused sexuality when they don't internally match up with what they are expected to be by the people they love)...I think parents should merely be encouraging kids to have character and let the young kids who are more in touch with what their generation's "masculinity" is, figure out where they fit personally. It's as much of a choice as religion (with the exception of kids who are baptized before the age of reason), political affiliation, and the clothes you wear. Because sexuality (in social terms) is individual, "masculinity" (in social terms) is individually based. Just as there are 3 recognized movements of feminism, there are several movements regarding masculinity.

The idea of masculinity as disciplining isn't sex related so much as class and socially related; the person in power traditionally disciplined because they had power to take away something tangible from a child's life.

Ex. (with unequal wages between men and women) a kid steals a candy bar...since dad makes more cash, when dad disciplines, it nearly means that there will be fewer toys for him in the next few weeks. If mom disciplines, it's not taken as seriously because her ability to impact her child financially is weaker. When mom disciplines, it nearly means, "Well, she won't buy me the little candy bar I wanted anyway, which isn't as big of a deal as losing out on dad buying my toys."

I think this is increasingly the case amongst divorced parents. But of course, kids get smarter and more ethical as they age and take into consideration the hardships their parents face.

Kids are told dad is the "provider" (Ex. "Daddy's going to buy you a diamond ring.") of tangible things, but end up appreciating and writing songs for mom (Ex. Dear Mama) and her intangible gifts. ;)

I guess what I'm trying to say in a round about way is that one person sees a woman pity a fallen man, another person sees that same woman love and care for that man.

One person's training is another person's nurturing.

One person's despise, is another's frustration of circumstance.

I think you're putting a very negative twist on female educator intentions bassjones...not meant as a jab, but I hope you don't dismiss me because of my sex and race.

When you describe female educator intentions as "training the masculinity out of males" I hope that you recognize that this isn't something to blame on female educators and write them off as having ill intentions... it's by in large a product of fewer males not stepping up to fill more influential positions in young males lives as teachers. How do you expect them to be "masculine" without male role models? I think it's really great that you're working with them now in the older age bracket, but where it's extremely lacking is the impressionable ages in primary education.

I know what my answer is, but why do you guys think fewer men teach primary education as opposed to secondary education?
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Post by bassjones »

I wasn't necessarily "blaming" anyone, just pointing out some things I see, and the main point wasn't even about masculinity, more that I think it's awfully difficult for upper middle class caucasian women to identify with poor young african american males, for a whole host of reasons, including masculinity but also a variety of socio-economic differences. And you have to admit there's a militant brand of feminism that's pretty hostile to masculinity. And that brand of feminism is particularly strongly represented in higher education and highly influences many of the young women who will eventually be educating young males.
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Post by QWETTY »

bassjones wrote: And you have to admit there's a militant brand of feminism that's pretty hostile to masculinity.
ide say... 100%

cough*cough* oprah cough* lol
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Post by BasSmArt »

bassjones wrote:I wasn't necessarily "blaming" anyone, just pointing out some things I see, and the main point wasn't even about masculinity, more that I think it's awfully difficult for upper middle class caucasian women to identify with poor young african american males, for a whole host of reasons, including masculinity but also a variety of socio-economic differences.
I agree there are differences, but I actually think women have a better idea of what it's like to deal with oppression than men. This is something I think african americans and women have in common on different fronts. Whereas, a white male has a harder time understanding what it's like to be socially oppressed. White males might understand african male sexuality more than women, but I think women can better relate to the social circumstances...But really, anyone can look at the books and statistics to pick apart the variables that play into social development of any sex or race. Just because you're a man, doesn't mean you have a better actual fact based idea of why races and sexes act in whatever way they act. Also, I think there is a cultural difference in the masculinity of african american males and caucassian males and being a white male doesn't necessarily mean they view their mom's, motherhood, and fathers and fatherhood in the same light.
bassjones wrote:And you have to admit there's a militant brand of feminism that's pretty hostile to masculinity.
Militant means aggressive...so a woman being aggressively pro-active about women's rights...that's a good thing so long as no one's civil rights are violated, right?
I think your perception of feminism being hostile towards males, is actually a serious disdain of inequality, discrimination, and objectification attitudes when they are represented by men.
I will say that there are good positive and negative forms of aggression though. I haven't heard many accounts of militant feminists raping, killing, or even holding a gun. More often, I hear a guy make some sort of comment about how he wants to "stick his d*ck in that hoe" (and I'm sure there is a less common but present female equivalent) and a woman responds with an angry "F-you." This is then followed with one of the following:

"Bull-d1ke b1tch!"
or
"Feminazi!"
Possibly followed by an "intellectualized" conversation about how those dang militant feminists are ruining the fabric of the country.

And it's really curious how when a woman counters a sexual desire decree of a man, some men are quick to classify her as gay, essentially negating any rejection she just laid on the table for the heterosexual man. If she's gay, her lack of interest couldn't be a character call on the man! (sarcasm) I can't tell you how many times I've been called a bull-d1ke after I respond (an upset look, pushing them off of me, sometimes I break out my 3rd finger, etc) to rude comments from men. It's really ridiculous. Sometimes some men will classify a woman as gay if she merely isn't interested in them!

I guess I'd have a little more understanding of your point of view if I could compare on a local scale how females are being MILITANT (I really think militant is thrown around too lightly in this case, men are more MILITANT and have been given more right to be too)...I don't even see burning bras as MILITANT. But given our local pool, I think people will find chauvanism and racism kill that number 1000 times.
bassjones wrote:And that brand of feminism is particularly strongly represented in higher education and highly influences many of the young women who will eventually be educating young males.
I saw some Gorilla Girls flyers on the walls of SF once, but I never saw any action.

I do agree that there are more liberal educators than conservative educators, even at SF. Being for women's rights tends to be on the liberal agenda more than the conservative agenda.

And some better educated/high income caucassian women are the ones who tend to take a greater interest in race and sex issues; they read sociology and psychology studies more than any other demographic. -Just look at your peers in any psychology or sociology class.

_______________

I probably should have asked this a while ago, but how are you defining masculinity in your post bassjones?

Further, what militant feminism do you see manifesting itself in the classroom?
Last edited by BasSmArt on Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Bjart Sod »

I don't have numbers on this, just personal experience, but the majority of women I met in college (and I was an education major) refused to label themselves as feminists because so many college feminist groups focus on the abortion issue solely. This is obviously a different generation than those who are teaching currently, and it doesn't mean the women aren't really feminists either, if someone had an objective way to measure it.
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Post by Bjart Sod »

bassjones wrote:Too many variables go into that to go into them all, but even raised in poverty a child with both parents is less likely to have the problems associated w/ single mother poverty, and a child raised by a single mother in middle class America will still not fare as well as a middle class child w/ two parents. At least based on the research I've seen.
I woke up thinking about this, and I strongly doubt this could be the case. How could white America, in just half a decade, stumble upon both the ideal family structure and ideal gender definitions for raising children? I'd like to see studies comparing one-parent, two-parent, and extended families. I don't know if these exist. The same for differing definitions of masculine/feminine/etc.
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Post by bassjones »

Bjart Sod wrote:
bassjones wrote:Too many variables go into that to go into them all, but even raised in poverty a child with both parents is less likely to have the problems associated w/ single mother poverty, and a child raised by a single mother in middle class America will still not fare as well as a middle class child w/ two parents. At least based on the research I've seen.
I woke up thinking about this, and I strongly doubt this could be the case. How could white America, in just half a decade, stumble upon both the ideal family structure and ideal gender definitions for raising children? I'd like to see studies comparing one-parent, two-parent, and extended families. I don't know if these exist. The same for differing definitions of masculine/feminine/etc.
Didn't mean to imply that. Sorry. Actually, in most cultures are reared by entire families or communities. The single family model is a relatively unique American/Western model. That being said, what makes us think that reducing even that to a single parent model would be an improvement or even an equally useful model for rearing children?
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Post by bassjones »

BasSmArt wrote:
bassjones wrote:I wasn't necessarily "blaming" anyone, just pointing out some things I see, and the main point wasn't even about masculinity, more that I think it's awfully difficult for upper middle class caucasian women to identify with poor young african american males, for a whole host of reasons, including masculinity but also a variety of socio-economic differences.
I agree there are differences, but I actually think women have a better idea of what it's like to deal with oppression than men. This is something I think african americans and women have in common on different fronts. Whereas, a white male has a harder time understanding what it's like to be socially oppressed. White males might understand african male sexuality more than women, but I think women can better relate to the social circumstances...But really, anyone can look at the books and statistics to pick apart the variables that play into social development of any sex or race. Just because you're a man, doesn't mean you have a better actual fact based idea of why races and sexes act in whatever way they act. Also, I think there is a cultural difference in the masculinity of african american males and caucassian males and being a white male doesn't necessarily mean they view their mom's, motherhood, and fathers and fatherhood in the same light.
bassjones wrote:And you have to admit there's a militant brand of feminism that's pretty hostile to masculinity.
Militant means aggressive...so a woman being aggressively pro-active about women's rights...that's a good thing so long as no one's civil rights are violated, right?
I think your perception of feminism being hostile towards males, is actually a serious disdain of inequality, discrimination, and objectification attitudes when they are represented by men.
I will say that there are good positive and negative forms of aggression though. I haven't heard many accounts of militant feminists raping, killing, or even holding a gun. More often, I hear a guy make some sort of comment about how he wants to "stick his d*ck in that hoe" (and I'm sure there is a less common but present female equivalent) and a woman responds with an angry "F-you." This is then followed with one of the following:

"Bull-d1ke b1tch!"
or
"Feminazi!"
Possibly followed by an "intellectualized" conversation about how those dang militant feminists are ruining the fabric of the country.

And it's really curious how when a woman counters a sexual desire decree of a man, some men are quick to classify her as exhibiting homosexual tendencies, essentially negating any rejection she just laid on the table for the heterosexual man. If she's exhibiting homosexual tendencies, her lack of interest couldn't be a character call on the man! (sarcasm) I can't tell you how many times I've been called a bull-d1ke after I respond (an upset look, pushing them off of me, sometimes I break out my 3rd finger, etc) to rude comments from men. It's really ridiculous. Sometimes some men will classify a woman as exhibiting homosexual tendencies if she merely isn't interested in them!

I guess I'd have a little more understanding of your point of view if I could compare on a local scale how females are being MILITANT (I really think militant is thrown around too lightly in this case, men are more MILITANT and have been given more right to be too)...I don't even see burning bras as MILITANT. But given our local pool, I think people will find chauvanism and racism kill that number 1000 times.
bassjones wrote:And that brand of feminism is particularly strongly represented in higher education and highly influences many of the young women who will eventually be educating young males.
I saw some Gorilla Girls flyers on the walls of SF once, but I never saw any action.

I do agree that there are more liberal educators than conservative educators, even at SF. Being for women's rights tends to be on the liberal agenda more than the conservative agenda.

And some better educated/high income caucassian women are the ones who tend to take a greater interest in race and sex issues; they read sociology and psychology studies more than any other demographic. -Just look at your peers in any psychology or sociology class.

_______________

I probably should have asked this a while ago, but how are you defining masculinity in your post bassjones?

Further, what militant feminism do you see manifesting itself in the classroom?
I really didn't intend this to turn into a discussion of feminism. I have never uttered any of the above offensive statements, nor would I tolerate any such statements from friends or acquaintences. Given they are made, any response short of fxxx you is more constraint than ought to be shown.

I fully support women's rights - short of abortion, but I don't want to get into that - and fully support that avenue of feminism. As to my definition of militant feminism, see the movie PCU... While an obvious farce, that depiction of militant feminism is more what I was refering to.

I don't necessarily agree that experiencing the kind of oppression faced by women for thousands of years equates to the sort of oppression faced by African-Americans in the US. One is very paternalistic, while the other is downright hatred and loathing. And I definitely don't believe experiencing that oppression enables a middle class female to have a clue about black, poverty-stricken culture in the US.

Also, I don't mean to imply I know what I'm talking about, just sharing my observations and interpretations. I'm learning as I go, mostly by listening to young, African-American males and hearing their frustrations. Most of what I posted is straight out of their mouths. I'm just trying to learn and help through that learning, rather than trying to give answers.
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Re: On race...

Post by heaven's chimney »

bassjones wrote:I'm not blaming the female teachers. I'm blaming the entire system.
It sounded to me like the bulk of your argument relied on masculinity and attacks on it. If my view of your argument was too narrow, I apologize.

The education system is a symptom of the broader problem.
Fo' Sho'! I can get down with that!

It is a fact that black males are the most likely group to be labeled as "at-risk" or "special needs". Why is this?
Well, there's a simple answer for that. Just kidding!


He is encouraged to go talk to a counselor and talk about his feelings - a very feminine thing to do (I said feminine, not girly, so don't flip out on me). Is this approach working?
Incorrectico! I dont think teachers are getting boys to do this. And while you're right about it being a feminine thing to do (because it's shown that girls hover around authority figures so that they'll ensure equality with toy sharing), we have to keep in mind that "masculinity" is almost entirely dominated by culture.

Culture! Culture is what teaches boys to be objective, aggressive, and ultra-assertive (well some boys, cuz other boys just get dominated too).


It also doesn't help that so many children are beaten at home. If you learn to take a punch in the house, you're probably learning how to throw them out of the home. If you see arguments escalate into screams and violence, you will be affected. Add to that the glorification of (unreasonable) pride and violence by various subcultures, and you've got some problems.

No, the solution isn't more masculinity and it isn't more femininity. I'd say that, at least, we need to get rid of the violence in the homes. Get rid of domestic (and other forms of) violence, start getting rid of relative deprivation, and you'll see some progress.

I'm not saying he should be taught to strike out against people picking on him, but sometimes a man's got to fight back and stand up for himself (a decidedly masculine approach). Again I'm not talking about violence, just standing up to the bully (a violent defense may be required, but it may not).
Well then the issue at hand is definining "sometimes." I guarantee that 9 times out of 10, violence from males revolves around the "I'm not going to take this!" variety.

Sometimes standing up to a bully means tattling. (Some cultures would rather run than fight)




The only time you hear about them is when they are getting into trouble or performing magical feats of athletic prowess in the gymnasium.
Amen to that! I try, to little affect, to explain to people how "positive" stereotypes hurt racial minorities. The Japanese have a super-low-class group (the name escapes me), and they're marginalized too. The way they've gotten more accepted into the mainstream is via sports. Ridiculous and embarassing!

Their own culture devalues education
( You have to tread lightly on "their culture." Because it's not like there's "one Black culture." If you want a glaring example, check out The Lost Boys of Sudan. )

Maybe the quality of the education is what's being devalued. I'll have you refer to Dead Prez's "They Schools" ( Lyrics ). You will be hard pressed to find many people who feel that our schools teach anything important. Either that, or I'm talking to absolutely everyone who opposes formal, compulsory education. Is it really important for Khairi to learn about freedom from Thomas "I know my slaves in the Biblical sense" Jefferson?

Is it really surprising that "their culture" devalues education? Education has almost always been a sumptuary good. My culture devalues (formal) education. I think I'll quote Dead Prez:
They schools cant teach us sh*t
My people need freedom, we tryin to get all we can get
All my high school teachers can suck my d*ck
Tellin me white man lies straight bullsh*t
They schools aint teachin us, what we need to know to survive
They schools dont educate, all they teach the people is lies

...

And they aint teachin us nothin related to
Solvin our own problems
Aint teachin us how to get crack out the ghetto
They aint teachin us how to stop the police from murdering us
And brutalizing us, they aint teachin us how to get our rent paid
they aint teachin our families how to interact
Better with each other

To call upon Paulo Freire, our schools are based on Banking Education - the one with the knowledge (almighty teacher) deposits said knowledge into a receptacle (teacher) and then makes sure that the deposit comes back out. Add to that that said knowledge is "lies," and you'll see some resentment. I'm going to stop before this gets too long.
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