On race...

To keep the music chat from being un-interupted send all political opinons here. This is fortwayneMUSIC.com after all.

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zenmandan
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Post by zenmandan »

bassjones-
I most certainly have biases and prejudices, and I fully acknowledge that I am subject to them in my everyday life. My students are not. When I am teaching I have one thing in mind. Music. I have had students from all walks of life, many races, mental conditions, you name it. When I'm working with a percussion section the music is my sole focus. The fact that a kid is Brazilian with a mental disability doesn't enter into play (enter any race or issue here). Making the music the best it can be is all that matters. How could I call myself a teacher if in the middle of rehearsal I am treating a kid different because he's whatever color? For example, where I am teaching now I have one child of mixed race, several from very low income families, a couple of kids with money, two with slight mental disabilities, one with severe medical problems, a couple with horrible home lives, and a few others of middle class status. If you were to contact any of them you'd not find a single one that would say I treat them any different than the other. My outside problems, concerns, biases, prejudices, beliefs, thoughts, anything...are not alowed in the rehearsal. If I had an arguement with my wife, why would I want to bring that into rehearsal? If some guy flipped me off on the highway and tried to run me off the road, yeah, I'm gonna mention it, but why would I want to let that control my rehearsal? If I have a predjudice against people from Michigan, and am teaching in a school in Michigan, how can I bring that into rehearsal? I try to instill that same principle in my students..."You and your girlfriend are having problems? Let's talk about it after rehearsal, not during. Your parents car is getting repo'd? Let's figure something out for you after rehearsal". My kids know that outside problems have nothing to do with playing music to the best of their ability, here and now. There will always be something else going on in your life outside of rehearsal, or this Saturdays marching band contest, or next months Jazz band concert. I try to teach them to leave all of that at the doorstep. When you are playing music, let that be all you do.

Again, I fully acknowledge that I can have some pretty negative ideas on people. When I'm out and about doing whatever, they show up occasionally (especially in my car). I will, however, challenge you to no end when you say I can't live up to the standard I have set for myself when teaching. When I can't do what I have said I am capable of, I will quit teaching. If you can't accept that there are people capable of teaching without bias, I am sorry. If you can't accept that people are able to leave any outside ideas at the door, again, I'm sorry. You should have a little faith that what you are striving for, your passion for racial justice, has been achieved, to some small degree, in my rehearsal rooms. If you can't accept that, once again, I am sorry.
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Post by Grindspine »

Color and Colour are both correct.
bassjones wrote:"In a free market society, everyone is paid exactly what they are worth."

This includes teachers. Teachers are paid according to what the people paying them (taxpayers) think they are worth. Doctors are paid according to what the people paying them (hospitals/practices, patients, insurance companies - not necessarily in that order) think they're worth. Athletes and entertainers get paid exactly what the people paying them thinks they are worth.
If people were really paid what they were worth, or treated how they should be, I wouldn't have been barely making rent while working my ass off at a gas station.

Also,
I've been teaching for 15 years and have never treated anyone differently for any reason, let alone skin color.
I don't believe you. I fully believe you have tried to do this, but I don't believe you have lived up to your efforts. I don't even know you, but I don't believe anyone can live up to that standard. We all have biases and prejudices based on certain criteria, race being one of them. Those biases and prejudices are certain to affect how we treat people. It may not have been horrible, but I guarantee you have treated people differently based on your own set of biases. It's okay, the first step is acknowledging it :wink:

I used to say the same thing about myself, but I realize I had/still have biases regarding race, many that I didn't think were there. We all have them. I don't believe I have any hatred or ill will in my biases, but I certainly have some, many of which I may not even be aware of yet.
Although his rebuttal was unheated and well-put, I'm tempted to lock this thread. A lot of people are looking quite like close-minded, bigoted jerks here throughout the thread.
heaven's chimney

Post by heaven's chimney »

zenmandan wrote:heaven's chimney-
Color...C-O-L-O-R. What are you, British?
Halt, philistine! This is AMERICA. WE SPEAK ENGLISH.

:P

I've been teaching for 15 years and have never treated anyone differently for any reason, let alone skin color.
I completely agree with bassjones when he said "I fully believe you have tried to do this, but I don't believe you have lived up to your efforts. I don't even know you, but I don't believe anyone can live up to that standard. "

We're all biased. We ABSOLUTELY cannot escape that.
I will, however, challenge you to no end when you say I can't live up to the standard I have set for myself when teaching.
Go pick up a Social Psychology textbook. Or you can also check out an Intro to Psych or Sociology textbook. I can think of a lot of examples off the top of my head. One lady was being VIDEOTAPED FOR THE NEWS. It was a study on bias in teachers regarding gender. Lady Teacher was teaching math (uh oh!). Perhaps over-conscious of the task at hand, she called up a girl to the front. (Called up a girl! That's better; normally teachers give more attention to guys for math) So the girl holds up and reads a problem for the class. What happens then? The teacher literally faces away from the girl section of the class and towards the boys' section for their answers. She was pulling a biased move while trying not to be biased. She didn't even know! On the news!

I teach my students to become better people through respect (not only their teachers, but themselves), diligent work (in their music as well as their classroom work)
Sorry to play Nathan Naysayer, but you're preparing them for a life of hierarchy (you call it respect) and industrialized production (you call it diligent work).
Show me how I am perpetuating prejudice or how I am fundamentally screwing over anyone...
Well that's pretty complicated and tricky and to quote the above "A lot of people are looking quite like close-minded, bigoted jerks here throughout the thread." As I dont want to be a close-minded, bigoted jerk, I'll have to refrain. If you want to PM me, however, you can.


...and I'll gladly take less money. Until you can do that, I feel that I deserve more, as do thousands of other teachers that are many times better than I will ever be. For you to make such a broad statement is absolutely arrogant and unfounded.
First, I'm referring to the capitalist interpretation - money as incentive. When I say teachers should get less money, I want them to leave the system. They can do more for more kids by doing less for less kids - substituting alternative educational systems for the current industrialized education system. Second, it's definitely broad. Third, it's not unfounded. Broadly, again, imposing hierarchy on kids (or anyone) breaks the experiential guidelines of Carl Rogers, Paulo Freire, Derrick Jensen, and John Taylor Gatto. This analogy will be a shocker, I know, but it's like calling yourself a really nice prison guard: I teach them cool things and am respectful to them. But, of course, they're still in prison.

"In a free market society, everyone is paid exactly what they are worth."
Which goes to show that everyone is worth at least $5.30 an hour (except waitresses and food delivery people). I like the wording on that because it exposes just how heinous capitalism is: we are worth infinitely more than what we're paid. It's insane to say that the market determines prices (come on, subsidies, lobbyists, etc).
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Post by zenmandan »

I apologize to bassjones, heaven's chimney, and everyone else. Apparently there isn't a single human on the planet that has the capability to teach without being an a$$ to at least one kid in the class. As far as preparing the students for a life of heirarchy...I teach them to respect one another and their teachers, not by calling everyone sir and maam, but by treating others with the same respect they would want. That's it. As far as diligent work translating into "industrialized production"...I teach my kids how to practice to get better, how to learn for themselves, not how to work like their livelihood depended on it. I teach them to make their practice time count. To not waste time, but to practice smarter.

I can understand being upset at the way schools are run in todays world. I can even agree with you guys on many points. However, I am not part of that system. Music boosters pay me to come in and make their percussion program better, not the school system. Parents pay me to teach their kids percussion lessons, not the school. That's it. I'm not stuck preparing some kid for his dopey ISTEP test, or any other standardized test. I'm not making sure "no kid is left behind". All I do is teach percussion, and how to get better at playing it. I don't answer to the administration or anyone else (except maybe the band director) so I'm not trapped into some curriculum that doesn't make any sense. I teach a kid that music is everything. Without it, life would suck. I teach them how to perform. How to become musicians. How to love what their doing. I teach each kid to try to reach for their potential, whether that student is a senior with a second grade reading level, or a sophomore taking advanced calculus. They each have their own potential and I help them to reach for it.

I really don't know what happened to you people to give you such an awful outlook on the teaching profession, but I do feel sorry for you. It's unfortunate that you have no faith in anyone being able to really reach all their students in a positive way.
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Post by sharkmansix »

I really don't know what happened to you people to give you such an awful outlook on the teaching profession, but I do feel sorry for you. It's unfortunate that you have no faith in anyone being able to really reach all their students in a positive way.
I don't think it's a problem with the concept of passing on knowledge (AKA: teaching) but rather the current system in which it's contained.

I would guess people aren't positive because of the way it has seeming failed millions of kids.
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Post by bassjones »

Actually, zenmandan, the more I think about the more I think your position would be one in which your probably could more or less teach without your biases affecting your teaching. However, it also could open doors to biases, such as, do you ever assume the African American kids will have more "natural" rhythm? Do you ever assume the Latino kids will "get" the complex latin based rhythms more quickly? If not, that's good, and you've been teaching long enough that I assume those stereotypes and myths would have long ago been dissolved.

As to the capitalist argument, probably needs to be in a different thread...

However, the quote refers to pay and what your job is worth to the person paying you for it, not self-worth. The reason people get paid minimum wage is because the job requires very little specialized skill and the potential workers for it are in abundance. Doctors get paid very well, because it is highly specialized and there are not many people qualified for the profession. The reason teachers get paid what they get paid is because the tax-payers who pay their wages have determined their jobs are not worth anymore to them than what they're paying them now. It really is that simple.
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zenmandan
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Post by zenmandan »

Thanks bassjones. I appreciate the reply. As far as assuming anything about kids and playing percussion, no way! You are correct in your assumption that those "natural biases" went out the window a long time ago.

When it comes to what we are being paid as teachers, I understand why we are paid what we are. Taxpayers, etc. setting the standard wage, blah blah...That doesn't mean that I have to like it. And it certainly doesn't mean that teachers aren't worth more. I guess I should clarify...SOME teachers. Perhaps a system could be set up to analyze the impact a teacher has. You could call it the Dead Poets/Mr Holland/Coach Boone Effectiveness Level Indicator Exam/Obsevation. A teacher is rated on classroom effectiveness, impact on students, and anything else a teacher should do. Tenure is never given to college professors, as that is an excuse to be lazy. A teacher's pay is determined by their score on the DPMHCBELIE/O. Low scores = crappy teachers = low pay. High scores indicate someone a movie will be made about later in their life, therefore higher pay. This wouldn't be a test that they could prepare for either. They are randomly observed throughout the year. Kids are given "teacher effectiveness forms" to fill out. Kid's grades are taken into account. The score is determined over a long period of time, therefore crappy teachers couldn't fake their way into a good score. Remember when your principal would come in to observe your teacher for a day, and you thought "who is this guy teaching me today? He sucked yesterday, but is kind cool today?" Then the next day he sucked again. No more of that. The DPMHCBELIE/O would solve everyones problems. OK, that may be a bit of an overstatement, but it could be a start.

I guess my whole point here is that there are teachers out there that really are great and do deserve a ton more than they are getting. Will it happen? Who knows. But I do know that they are out there, and I will continue to support those that are doing above and beyond what they are paid to do.
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Post by flapjacks »

this is for qwetty, give it up you're makng an ass of yourself; and until you are a little better speller maybe you should use spell check.

heres my racist contribution to this thread

All black people smell like chicken
[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4453/davidhasselhoff2gc.jpg[/img][/url]

David hasselhoff, a rocket of dissapointment
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Re: On race...

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